00:01 Michael Port: Okay, good, weâre recording. Welcome to Steal the Show with Michael Port. This is Michael. I have a friend who lives nearby who is also a professional speaker. And of course, we donât just focus on professional speaking but on Steal the Show, we focus on performance in all aspects of life. In this particular episode, weâre gonna focus a little bit more on what it means to be a speaker, how one performs as a speaker, and what it means to be a woman in the industry. âCause I think thatâs a really important topic. So Neen James, who lives 20 minutes from me, she has an MBA, she is a CSP, which is a Certified Speaking Professional, sheâs definitely high-energy, sheâs definitely an Aussie with a lot of sass. I said sass, S-A-S-S, just to be clear.
[chuckle]
01:04 Michael Port: She is an attention expert, keynote speaker, and lover of fabulous shoes. And since she is here with me in the studio, Iâm gonna look at her shoes, hold on. Can I see those please? Oh, she just took them off, and they have red soles. Does that mean itâs Prada?
01:19 Neen James: [chuckle] Means itâs a Louboutin. [laughter]
01:20 Michael Port: Oh, Louboutin. Fantastic. So she definitely has fabulous shoes, and she delivers engaging programs that educate and entertain audiences with real-world strategies that apply at work and at home. Sheâs the author of âFolding Time,â and her latest book, âAttention.â She believes leaders profit by paying attention, and weâre gonna pay attention to her today. So you can find out more about her at neenjames.com. Thatâs N-E-E-N James.com. Hi.
01:54 Neen James: Good day. Nice to be here.
01:56 Michael Port: So she has an accent, you can tell.
[laughter]
01:58 Michael Port: And Neen is pretty interesting for a number of reasons. First, you pay attention to her right away âcause sheâs not tall.
02:07 Neen James: [chuckle] Not exactly.
02:09 Michael Port: How tall are you?
02:09 Neen James: Four ten. And a half. And the half matters, just saying.
02:12 Michael Port: Four ten and a half. Which is⊠Iâve always been fascinated with really big people and really small people.
[chuckle]
02:20 Michael Port: Average people, not so much. Like me, Iâm average size. Little people and big people are fascinating to me. And you can tell that she has a unique voice. And I wanna start with this, because I know itâs something that you often address right at the beginning of your speeches.
02:35 Neen James: I do.
02:36 Michael Port: And Iâd like to know how.
02:38 Neen James: Okay. So I know I sound like Iâm five, but if you add a lot of years to that, thatâs when you get my real age. For me, in those first two minutes with the audience, so generally as a speaker Iâve met people in advance, Iâve shot a video for them, theyâve had experiences online. But when I speak in front of an audience, within the first two minutes, I make jokes about it, because itâs so obvious. But whatâs fascinating is, I make a joke about it, and I might say, âOkay, I know I sound like a chipmunk,â or, âOh my God, I know I sound like Iâm five,â or, âI should have my own voice, I should have my own cartoon.â Thereâs so many ways I play with the audience. And then they get, âOh my God, she actually realizes she has a high-pitched voice, sheâs okay with it.â And so because Iâm okay with it, I make it safe for them as well. And interestingly, a lot of gentlemen will come up to me afterwards, when you sign books and say hey to people, and theyâll be like, âI forgot all about your voice after a while.â
03:27 Neen James: So interestingly, when you address the elephant in the room, because sometimes Iâll say, âThereâs an elephant in this room. She happens to be four ten and a half, she happens to sound like sheâs five, and she wears fabulous shoes.â And so now weâve just checked all the boxes and then weâre good. âCause on the stage, honey, people donât realize how little you are.
03:44 Michael Port: True.
03:44 Neen James: Itâs only when you come off. I was with Mark Eaton, a basketball player, recently. Heâs 7 foot 4. I come up to a rude spot on that man, and heâs fantastic, right? So itâs really interesting. They donât have the idea of depth or height when youâre up on screen.
03:58 Michael Port: And also, youâre often speaking on very large stages, and so theyâre watching a video of you, so thereâs no issue there.
04:05 Neen James: Yeah.
04:09 Michael Port: But I asked the question because audiences need to get used to us.
04:13 Neen James: Right.
04:14 Michael Port: We forget that, that theyâve never seen us move, theyâve never heard us. They donât know our speech patterns.
04:21 Neen James: Sure.
04:22 Michael Port: And I think you do a great job of addressing it, and I think that we should all be aware of this concept. Whether or not you think you have a voice that is different, or if youâre of average size. So you might not think, âWell, I donât think thereâs anything I have to address.â But I think all of us should be aware of the fact that people are not used to us.
04:47 Neen James: Right. And if you add a five-year-old voice, with an accent, right?
04:51 Michael Port: Sure, on top of that.
04:52 Neen James: And so thereâs that on top. And I remember when I first got into professional speaking, and every person, including the President of the National Speakers Association, told me I had to get voice coaching. Everyone told me, âIf youâre gonna make money in this business, you have to deepen your voice. You wonât be taken seriously with that voice.â And only one person that you and I know, Matt Church, the founder of Thought Leaders Global, he pulled me aside and he was like, âNope.â He said, âThatâs authentically you. Donât change that.â
05:16 Michael Port: Brilliant.
05:16 Neen James: And he said, âYou love to play and just be you on the stage.â Best advice I got early in my career. So for people who might have something thatâs unusual about them, people remember that and it does make you unique, but you do have to allow the audience just the permission to go, âIâm okay with it,â and eventually youâll be okay as well.
05:33 Michael Port: Thatâs right. And voice work is something that we teach a lot, but we do exactly what youâre suggesting, is that our goal is to help free the natural voice. And one of the reasons that we focus on voice work is to help our speakers breathe.
05:52 Neen James: Ah, right.
05:52 Michael Port: Itâs not just the sound of your voice thatâs important, but itâs the ability to use all of the air in your lungs, to take it all in, to manage your breathing and to have more gravitas regardless of the tone or the pitch of your voice.
06:08 Neen James: Yeah, and itâs fun. Obviously, when we do sound checks, I always play with all the engineers and the front-of-house and I play with my voice with all those people and make it okay with everyone else as well. And so Iâve worked with sound teams that have been on conferences with me like years before and theyâre like, âOh my God, I remember you,â because not only the voice, but because when you take the time to say to people, âHey, this is what it really sounds like and this is what we need to do.â I think our sound engineers, the team we work with as professional speakers, itâs vital that we give them what they need as well to do their job properly as well.
06:40 Michael Port: Yeah. Itâs interesting because you focus on leadership.
06:44 Neen James: Thatâs right.
06:44 Michael Port: One of your areas of expertise. Leadership is a very male-dominated business in the world of professional speaking and authorship. So now, you have the smaller person, [chuckle] the higher voice in a male-dominated industry focusing on a topic that they think they own.
07:05 Neen James: Sure.
07:06 Michael Port: And I would love to⊠And I wondered the same thing, did people tell you, âOh, you shouldnât get into that. Thatâs⊠â
07:11 Neen James: Mm-hmm.
07:12 Michael Port: Yeah. Same just like your voice.
07:13 Neen James: Just go speak at womenâs leadership conferences. That was the advice given to me.
07:16 Michael Port: Yeah.
07:16 Neen James: Which is awesome and I love female audiences, my God, but I make my money and I love mixed audiences in those mixed environments, so Iâm not just a chick speaker. And thatâs great if thatâs what you wanna do. I love that. But I think what happens is, thereâs so many stereotypes in this business, part of our job is to break them.
07:37 Michael Port: Thatâs right. In large part, the performerâs job is to break the rules.
07:40 Neen James: Sure.
07:41 Michael Port: And I love howâŠ
07:42 Neen James: And Iâm Australian, so of course we break rules.
07:44 Michael Port: Of course, you do.
[laughter]
07:46 Michael Port: So I just unzipped my zipper on my jacket. I donât want anyone to get the wrong idea of what I just unzipped [laughter] if you could hear that. So letâs talk about the womenâs conferences.
07:56 Neen James: Sure.
07:56 Michael Port: This is something that Amy and I have been talking a lot about and asking a lot of questions about because our job is not to focus on the business side, thatâs not what we do particularly. We address it, of course, because people have questions about it, but we really focus on the performance side of things. Nonetheless, if you wanna be on stage, youâre very consciously thinking about, âWhere do I wanna go to speak?â And thereâs a big, big industry in the conferences that focus on women. It seems to me, tell me if this is correct, that many of them are only paying a few of their speakers.
08:39 Neen James: Correct.
08:39 Michael Port: They pay the keynoter, like a Barbara Corcoran.
08:42 Neen James: Sure.
08:43 Michael Port: Or Arianna Huffington.
08:45 Neen James: The celebrity piece.
08:46 Michael Port: Right.
08:47 Neen James: Right.
08:47 Michael Port: And then the fifty other speakers donât get paid.
08:50 Neen James: No, but they do it for so-called exposure.
08:52 Michael Port: Right.
08:53 Neen James: And we know that everyone can die from exposure.
08:55 Michael Port: Thatâs right.
08:55 Neen James: So, yeah.
[laughter]
08:56 Michael Port: So talk to me about this because itâs a little bit like the NSA which does a lot of great things for a lot of speakers. Iâm not a member, but I did speak there and I remember them saying, âWell, we donât pay our speakers.â I thought, âWell, thatâs interesting because itâs an organization about speakers whoâve been trying to help speakers get paid to speak, but theyâre not paying speakers.â So same thing with the womenâs conferences, if their job is to help women move forward, say professionally, in their careers, but theyâre not paying the speakers to be there. Is there some conflict there?
09:30 Neen James: I donât think that itâs unique to womenâs conferences. I need to say that upfront. I think that some meeting planners have a budget and if they blow it all, and Iâm sure itâs well spent, but if they give it all to one particular speaker, then theyâre sweet-talking others to come in and present and theyâre making all kinds of promises. âWeâll give you the list. Weâll video your talk.â I mean you can negotiate a lot of things. Iâm not saying donât speak for free. Please donât misunderstand what Iâm saying.
09:54 Michael Port: Yeah.
09:55 Neen James: I think though that there is an assumption. Look this is just maybe one of my⊠This is my opinion only, but I think if youâre a woman who is successful, there is an expectation that you will also help other woman be successful and I really support that. I think where the change happens is that people think, âOh, you wanna be paid for that? Well, why arenât you just doing it out of the goodness of your heart?â So one of the things that I think I see more that maybe female speakers who are listening to a podcast, maybe they could understand where Iâm coming from, that there is an assumption then, âWell, youâll just do it because youâve already made it. And so you can bring women along with you.â Absolutely wanna be able to do that. But thereâs so many pro bono hours I have in a year and thereâs so many charities I support and Iâm very diligent about those. And I think the meeting planners that are asking are hoping youâll do it out of the goodness of your heart or theyâre going to tell you thereâs decision makers in the room.
10:47 Michael Port: Sure.
10:47 Neen James: And Iâm sure gentlemen hear the same thing, Michael.
10:50 Michael Port: Yeah, of course.
10:50 Neen James: I just think I see it more with those female audiences and I think they wanna create this nurturing, relationship building, that type, and thatâs lovely. But at the end of the day, we still have financial goals that weâre all trying to achieve. We work for different reasons, whatever that is for people. I really like money. I like money, I think the more money you make, the more you can give away. I donât care if you like money or not. If you donât like it, just give it away. Itâs totally okay with me, but I also expect to be paid for the value that I bring to that room.
11:20 Michael Port: Agreed. Mitch Joel was on this show recently.
11:22 Neen James: Oh, fabulous.
11:24 Michael Port: And he said that one of his friends often says that he loves speaking so much that heâd do it for free, but he charges you so you value it.
11:32 Neen James: I heard that and itâs such a great sound byte.
11:34 Michael Port: Isnât it great?
11:35 Neen James: Yeah. People donât value free. And I say that to my clients all the time. People donât value free. And so thereâs a lot of people who have additional profit centers in their practice. I have an executive mentoring, so I work with very high level executives as part of what I do. Thatâs where I came from today before we got to catch up. And I think people confuse mentoring and friendtoring, so theyâre like, âOh, can I get some advice from you?â âAbsolutely. This is what I charge for that.â âOhâ. [laughter] Itâs like a disconnect. And I think because itâs not tangible what we do, you donât go into a Ferrari dealership and say, âHey, by the way, I just wanna take that car out âcause Iâll look great in it and Iâll get exposure for me and my brand driving around in it.â
12:14 Michael Port: There is a video going around that was about that. It was for people who are in the service industries and they just went in to random businesses.
12:23 Neen James: [laughter] Yeah, I saw that.
12:24 Michael Port: Did you see that one? It was hysterical.
12:26 Neen James: And yet itâs brilliant because if youâve been in this business long enough or even if youâre just starting out⊠Look, when I started out, I spoke anywhere and everywhere because I wanted to practice my material, itâs time on your feet. And look, I still speak for free, so donât misunderstand what Iâm saying, but I also believe that we have to make what we do tangible. We need to make people understand it. And every time we discount and every time we say, âOh, okay. Iâll do it for exposure,â I think it actually does damage to our industry.
12:55 Michael Port: Yes. And the reason that I asked this is not just because youâre a woman, but because I do see a discrepancy in the industry and Iâve seen, and a lot of my students have asked questions about this, is they say, âIs this a theme thatâs gonna continue on the womenâs speaker circuit around the womenâs conferences or will it change at some point?â And of course, I donât have an answer for that, but I just was wondering if you see that happening consistently? Do you think itâs getting better? Do you have an idea?
13:34 Neen James: Iâd love to say itâs getting better. Thereâs a speaker that I admire by the name of Connie Podesta and Iâm sure you know who Connie is. And she rocks the stage, her clients love her. She is brilliant, but sheâs also found herself with not a lot of competitors. Sheâs in a price point, thereâs not a lot of female business keynoters. Sally Hogshead, who we all know and love, sheâs in that same category. And she and I were talking recently about this idea and I think unfortunately some of the female speakers that I know, also donât appreciate their own value. Where gentlemen say, âIâm 15 grand or 20 grand.â Iâm just throwing numbers out there, whatever your fee is is your fee. And some of them are like, âOh, God, I donât if I could charge that.â But I know for a fact that there are gentlemen who may be as good or not even as good and yet they know their value.
14:21 Neen James: So Connie makes this really great point about understanding the value that you bring and I think weâve got to get smarter, female speakers have got to get smarter about articulating the return on the investment that that meeting planner is making or that client is making. And be able to speak to the tangible, to that true return, âThis is whatâs gonna happen when the audience getâs to play with me or gets to spend time,â or whatever it is. So itâs all about the client, but youâre speaking in a language they understand, that has some sort of financial implications if youâre in the business. Now, for those who are pure motivational, which Iâm not, Iâm a business speaker, they make their audiences feel like a million bucks. And so thereâs such an important need for those people. But I am a speaker who, I havenât had a talk show, I havenât climbed a mountain, I havenât had anything tragic happen to me. Iâm not the typical motivational speaker, I say in air quotes. Does that make sense?
15:12 Michael Port: Of course. I was just working on a new disability policy and they categorize me as a motivational speaker. [chuckle] I said, âWhy did you categorize me as a motivational speaker?â They said, âWell, youâre a speaker, right?â I said, âI happen to speak on the intellectual property that I create, but Iâm a business owner and I have two different businesses.â And I was trying to explain that to them, because itâs important to be categorized correctly for disability policy or else if you ever make a claim, they go, âOh, but you werenât doing the motivational speaking.â Whatever it is.
15:48 Neen James: And I used to fight that term a lot âcause look, itâs the Australian in me as well. In Australia⊠Look, being an Australian and now a recent American citizen, I donât know if you knew that.
15:57 Michael Port: Congratulations.
15:58 Neen James: But as an Aussie, Iâm just not impressed by anyone or anything and thatâs not being disrespectful. I just donât care because Australians core value is equality. Right?
16:07 Michael Port: Yeah, thatâs right.
16:07 Neen James: And so when I would see these motivational rah-rah speakers all begging for their standing ovation, Iâll be like, âUgh, thatâs vomitous.â I just couldnât put myself in that bracket. But then what I realized was my clients donât understand the difference between a business speaker or a motivational speaker, so I have to get over myself. If thatâs what they wanna call it and thatâs what I want on the invoice, thatâs what Iâll put. Itâs like the difference between coaching and mentoring. Iâm not a great coach, but Iâm a fantastic mentor. I just wanna tell you what to do. In my experience, hereâs what I think we need to do. But a great coach will ask you phenomenal questions and thatâs a brilliant skill set that I donât have. But if the client wants to pay for coaching and I wanna call it mentoring, well, Iâll just put on the invoice whatever they want. I think we get stuck on words.
16:49 Michael Port: I think what you said that we need to get over it, get over ourselves is a really important concept because weâre really not that important. In the world of professional speaking at least, sometimes we start to think that the show is about us. [chuckle] And itâs not at all.
17:10 Neen James: [laughter] So not about us.
17:11 Michael Port: Not even close.
17:12 Neen James: Honey, they are filling a slot. They have 45 to 90 minutes and they just need you to show up and rock it and make the meeting planner look good and the audience feel and then bye-bye. Thatâs it. If people think theyâre more than that⊠I think you can have relationships. I think you can do so much more, you can add so much value, but do not think you are that much important. I always figure people have to put the trash out at night just like I do. Same same, right? It doesnât make me any more important or any less important. Itâs just what we have chosen to do as the lifestyle weâve created. Some people go into an office. Our office is a plane or a convention center or a hotel. Itâs just a little different, itâs not better.
17:48 Michael Port: You mentioned something interesting in terms of really recognizing your value, speaking to it and asking for it. And itâs interesting because Amy and I⊠I donât do much private coaching. Amy does a little bit more than I do over Skype and she really likes doing it. And Iâve been doing this since 2003 and obviously, have a brand recognition in the industry based on the work that Iâve done over the years.
18:24 Neen James: Sure, you gotta beautiful body of work.
18:26 Michael Port: Thank you. I thought you were gonna say a beautiful body and then stop there. No, thanks.
18:28 Neen James: Oh, sorry I stopped. You can edit it if you want. [laughter]
18:33 Michael Port: Somebody gave me a T-shirt once that said, âWith this body, who needs hair?â
[laughter]
18:38 Neen James: Thatâs funny.
18:39 Michael Port: If you canât see me obviously, if you donât know who I am, I have a bald head. But we also⊠So we charge different rates for private coaching.
18:53 Neen James: Sure.
18:54 Michael Port: Many people who come to us at first know of me because of the books, because of my history in the industry. And people get to know Amy afterwards. But weâve had emails from a couple people every once in a while. We had an email recently from a woman who wrote it to Amy and she was furious that we were priced differently. But she didnât know either of us. We just were two people who were married, and in love, and run a business together. And Amy wanted to explain it to her. And I was sorta like, when you do this, after a while, as our friend Scott Stratten says, you donât have to be the [BEEP] Whisperer. Not that she was, just, let me be clear. But you donât always have to respond to every single question or comment or piece of feedback that you get, because it can be time-consuming. And she said, âNo, no. I really want her to understand.â I said, âOkay. Well, thatâs great. Letâs see if she does.â And if my prices are higher, then people will go, âHmm, first I came to work with Michael, thatâs a little high for me. Well, let me have a look at Amy. Whoâs Amy? Oh, wow. Sheâs fantastic, now that Iâve seen her and who she is. I think I could probably pay for that. Iâll go do it.â Why? âCause she wants to do it. So the framing is very important. People look at prices in a frame and if youâre looking at different options, youâll take the option of what you think is the best value that you can afford.
20:29 Neen James: True. And I also think as speakers, Michael, that we have frames. So if youâve grown up in the industry, you start out, youâre making less than five grand. Maybe you go from five to 75. And then thereâs these brackets, 75 to 12 and then you jump into 15, 20, 25 and then you get celebrity 40 plus. So I think the challenge is that if we see ourselves in a frame as well, weâre like, âWell, Iâve only been doing this for a little while,â and by the way, I sucked at that. So I was like, âOh, God, I gotta earn my stripes. I havenât had anything traumatic happen. I donât have a story,â she says in air quotes again. So like, âWho am I to be charging, whatever my fee was?â And so I think that itâs a journey that⊠Well, someone once said to me, âIf you can say the price and donât laugh, youâre good.â
21:15 Michael Port: Yeah.
21:15 Neen James: And what I figured with a girlfriend of mine, we were saying, âWell, if one person pays it.â Right?
21:21 Michael Port: Sure. Sure.
21:22 Neen James: So I think your fee, whatever that is, wherever it is, I think that there are certain standards in the industry. And you know what a $20,000 speaker looks like.
21:33 Michael Port: So we have a student in our graduate school right now who is a professional speaker. Heâs been in the business for about five years and he does the college circuit.
21:42 Neen James: Neat.
21:43 Michael Port: So his speeches for the college circuit usually top out around six grand.
21:49 Michael Port: Right.
21:49 Michael Port: Sometimes 7500.
21:51 Neen James: Thatâs the high end of the college market.
21:52 Michael Port: This guy is phenomenal. The only reason Iâm not mentioning his name is because weâre gonna talk about the numbers for a second. But heâs amazing, incredible talent, his material is perfected. And he wants to move into the corporate market. And he had an opportunity, had a lead. So I said, âListen⊠â He said, âWhat should I charge, âcause Iâve only been making this and can I get more?â And I said, âOh, just double it, easy. Just double it.â He said, âOkay.â So they said, âWhatâs your fees?â He said, âDouble.â. He said, â15 grand.â And they said, âOkay, done.â Thatâs all it took. It was just him sort of moving into a different mind set around it and now if he does some college stuff, he might take less âcause the budget just may not be there. But now he knows, âOh, I have everything it takes for the corporate circuit. No doubt about it.â
22:47 Neen James: And I think we have to be careful that we donât look at one industry as better than another. I know some amazing speakers in the youth market who will always be in the youth market. And they will be happy.
22:56 Michael Port: And they love it.
22:57 Neen James: And they love it and they rock it. And they are true rock stars in the industry. Now, I live in corporate⊠I grew up in corporate business in Australia. Itâs what I know. Theyâre my people, so I feel super-comfortable there. But if I go outside to some of the other industries, whether itâs credit unions, pharmaceutical or law, even those three have very different perceptions of what a keynote fee needs to be. Especially if you donât have a New York Times best seller like you do or you havenât done something amazing. So I think we have to also look at the clients we want to work with. Not chase after the money, but go, âThese are the people. These are my people. This is where my heart is.â I did a job for the military once, by the way, not my people. And nothing against them because theyâre so amazing, but I was way too cute and the package was too weird for them. But they were paying a substantial amount of money and it was a good lesson in, âWow, sometimes youâve gotta really do your research. Who are your people and who do you like to hang out with?â And just go there and play with those people. Because thatâs where youâre gonna have the biggest impact.
23:58 Michael Port: Iâm gonna ask another question about women in the industry. I donât wanna harp on it, but I think you just have so much history in this industry. Weâve talked about some of the challenges that women face in the industry, what are some of the benefitsâŠ
24:15 Neen James: Oh my gosh, the list is amazing.
24:17 Michael Port: Yeah, that a woman has in this particular industry?
24:19 Neen James: Weâll go back to my example of Connie Podesta, where I said Connie doesnât have a huge amount of competitors. She speaks on sales and leadership, and she does the big, big events. I think that thereâs not the competition for women speakers and that breaks my heart. And I have so often been the only female speaker on an agenda, especially in some industries. While I wonât name them, literally, Iâve had meeting planners call me and say, âPlease donât cancel.â And I would say, âWhy would I cancel? I have a contract with you.â âYouâre the only female, I need you to turn up.â So one of the advantages are, if you are great in this business and you know how to run a business, that makes you some of the smaller percentage I guess. So I promote the fact that Iâm a female business keynoter. So I think thatâs a big advantage. I think another advantage is that we look at the world differently, thatâs whatâs so great about it. And so that perspective is really unusual. I was working with an executive of one of the large media companies this morning, and we were taking through an event that was happening to launch a new restructure.
25:20 Neen James: And I said, âThereâs no chicks in here. Whereâs the senior women?â And he was like, âOh.â So I think what we get the opportunity to do is to look at things and go, âOkay. Well, whoâs the woman on your panel? How can I help you there?â Or, âWhoâs the MC youâve got? If youâve always used a gentleman MC, would a female voice be a nice balance to that?â So I think what it does is allows us to also up our game as well. We need to get smarter about our marketing. But I think thereâs some advantages also of using what is uniquely yours. Women will look at the world differently, they buy differently, the have a completely different perspective. They lead differently. Theyâre the things you wanna tap into, but articulate them in the conversation you have with your client, articulate them in your marketing. Make a point of how you are different. I am sassy, and I am little, and I am Australian, and thereâs not a lot of us. Thatâs actually a huge competitive advantage. So make the most of how you are unique. I think thereâs benefits in leveraging them. But donât try and be like another boy because then youâre just the same as everyone else. That stuff drives me crazy.
26:23 Michael Port: Yeah, donât try to be like anybody else.
26:25 Neen James: No.
26:26 Michael Port: First of all, I love that you just said sassy. MyâŠ
[laughter]
26:32 Neen James: Your high school prophecy.
26:34 Michael Port: Yeah. My high school prophecy was to be modeling for Tiger Beat Magazine. And it sort of came true, which usually doesnât happen with high school prophecies. âCause the first magazine that I was ever in was Sassy Magazine.
[laughter]
26:49 Neen James: I heard your interview with Scott and I was laughing.
26:51 Michael Port: Oh, you did. I said it before, okay.
26:53 Neen James: No, I loved that. This is something people are learning about you now that you were modeling and sassy is such a great word.
27:01 Michael Port: Sassy Magazine.
27:02 Neen James: I know.
[laughter]
27:04 Michael Port: When Iâd walk by my friends in college theyâd go, âSassy. Sassy.â Donât you dare. Iâm not talking about you. Listener, donât you dare do that to me now. You can call me sassy whenever you want.
27:18 Neen James: Thatâs how everyoneâs gonna greet you at Heroic Public Speaking. Theyâre gonna come up to you and say that. I love it.
27:23 Michael Port: So letâs turn the corner a little bit. You are very active on social media. And yet your audience are very corporate, you speak on leadership, and you have very high level executives as mentees.
27:38 Neen James: Correct.
27:41 Michael Port: Does your participation on social media help you with booking gigs in those spaces or are you speaking to a different audience, say via Twitter, where youâre very, very active.
27:56 Neen James: Great questions. To me, social media is about being social. And itâs a conversation. Itâs not about vomiting content all over people which is what a lot of people use social media for. Hereâs how social media has helped me. I will write for industry magazines, CUInsights is like the Huffington Post for the Credit Union. So I write for them and contribute regularly. MeetingsNet is the meetings industry magazine, I write for them regularly. Those people, the editors, share that content online, so theyâre also helping to share messaging, but itâs very customized for that audience. I got a job in the Caribbean because someone read an article in CUInsights which had been tweeted and they were reading the tweets. But what I believe it does as a professional speaker, is that⊠Hereâs what happens.
28:40 Neen James: As soon as I know the hashtag for a conference, I always ask that in my pre-program questionnaire, whatâs the hashtag for the conference? So for Twitter, thatâs a place I like to play. And then I will start talking really early before the conference happens and start seeing and following the hashtag. I will literally have people run up and give me a cuddle when they meet me. Theyâre like, âOh my God, I meet you in real life,â because we develop these relationships online and then you get to meet people in real life. Think about what Scott Stratten has created with a particular Facebook group in the community weâre part of. And so those people may not get to see each other very often, but when they do, they feel really connected. So for me, thereâs a couple of things. Twitter is very much about my audience, so thatâs audience involvement and itâs fun and itâs just short and itâs really interactive and plus I tweet through a whole event. So when I go and speak, if I can arrive early, I will tweet out.
29:30 Michael Port: So a lot of the people that are following you on Twitter, are they people that have been in audiences?
29:36 Neen James: Some are. Twitter is really weird when you look at all the stats behind my Twitter. I have many more males follow me on Twitter than I do females. But then if you take LinkedIn, which is where my corporate clients are, I contribute to LinkedIn discussion groups. So they will see something that Iâve commented on and then obviously, LinkedIn posts where you can publish blogs. So I get feedback from the post articles, they get shared. So you have to look at social media as to who you really wanna play with. So for me, Twitter is very much about my audiences and playing with them. Instagram, thatâs my life in pictures. And so I just put, thatâs my life there, you can follow me of if you want to, I really donât care. Thereâs nothing corporate about that. But Iâm fascinated how deep into Instagram my clients go. That sort of freaks me out a little bit. I donât know about anyone listening, but when people like a photo that you published six months ago, Iâm like, âOh my God, how deep did they go?â Thatâs bizarre. And Facebook is just weird. I mean I have this love/hate relationship with Facebook. I love it because my family is in Australia, so I always get to see whatâs going on in their lives. And when Facebook first set up business pages, you might remember they were called Fan Pages, I refused to do it.
30:46 Michael Port: Me too.
30:47 Neen James: No way.
30:48 Michael Port: I remember saying, Iâm not Dave Matthews.
30:48 Neen James: Thatâs ugh! Itâs foul. Itâs so ego. I was like, âNo way!â So then when an audience went to connect [30:54] ____. Oh sure, you couldnât connect with me on my personal Facebook page, so now itâs this hodgepodge of everything. So everyone from my mom, to my niece, to my top executives, they see my life. Itâs what you see. If I wanna post about where I was having brunch on Sunday at Golden Pheasant here locally, thatâs what they see. If they see me on the stage, thatâs what they see. So itâs the same thing, no matter whether you see me at the airport, or online, itâs the same person.
31:17 Michael Port: Well, a number of years ago, I had that same exact issue. And then of course, my profile got filled up. So there were 5,000 people and then thatâs it.
31:26 Neen James: 5,000 people, I know.
31:28 Michael Port: So I couldnât add any people that I actually wanted to add. So I just converted that profile into a page and then start building the page.
31:35 Neen James: But that came later, right?
31:37 Michael Port: Later.
31:37 Neen James: âCause I have a business page now, but you canât put people across. You know what I mean? Do you know what Iâm saying? So I think you just gotta pick your social media.
31:45 Michael Port: Yeah. Actually at the time, I donât know what theyâre doing now, but I was able to merge them.
31:49 Neen James: Oh, nice.
31:50 Michael Port: But it meant that I had to close my profile, which was fine. âCause I just started it again, and now my profile is just 200 and something people that I actually know, and Iâm actually friends with. Then I started liking Facebook more. âCause I could post things that I might not post publicly, not that thereâs anything strange about them, but I donât really share everything about my personal life, professionally. I just donât think itâs relevant to most people.
32:17 Neen James: Itâs interesting what people are attracted to. So I was with a client just last week, and they were telling me all about what theyâd seen. And they were like, âYou were here, and then you were here, and then you bought this.â And I was like, âMm-hmm.â And they feel like theyâre part of your inner circle, or the club, or whatever that is and that makes them feel more connected to you. So honestly, if they feel more connected, then that just deepens the relationship. Iâm so okay about that. I would never post anything that I wouldnât want my mom to see.
32:47 Michael Port: Yes.
32:48 Neen James: I think thatâs a good rule for all of us. And Iâm never cranky on social media.
32:51 Michael Port: Well, thatâs a big one. One of the things that I often ask our students to do, is to look at their Facebook profile, and their Twitter profile, and to evaluate just how critical they are. Because you can look back at your posts and see, âWell yep, I criticized that. Yep, I said that was bad.â
33:10 Neen James: Oh, I never do that.
33:11 Michael Port: Right, and you would never do that. Nope, no way.
33:14 Neen James: No. Because what if your tweet ended up on the front page of The New York Times? And this is so possible. People can screenshot everything now, everyone has a camera now. I mean I think as speakers we have an obligation to support our meeting planners by using social media. And I have this, what we call BDA, before, during and after. We have a process mapped and we make that part of how we add extra value.
33:36 Michael Port: So thatâs what I wanted to go back to. I wanted you to talk about that, because clearly, you are getting really involved in that corporation or in that event even before you show up.
33:44 Neen James: Oh yeah, absolutely.
33:45 Michael Port: So your speech really starts as soon as you use that hashtag the first time.
33:49 Neen James: Yeah. So let me tell you a couple ways, things I do beforehand for all. And this is priced according to⊠Obviously, this helps me get my value as well.
33:57 Michael Port: So there are different packages that are add-ons, etcetera.
34:00 Neen James: Of course. But some of the things that we do is, I will always shoot a two-minute video for my client, less than two minutes. Itâs like me in my office, itâs not exciting production, itâs either a shot on my iPhone or my Mac. And itâs customized for them. âIâm so excited to see you all. Letâs start the conversation early. Hereâs how we can talk: Twitter, Facebook. Hey, hereâs my e-mail address. E-mail me directly. Whatâs your biggest challenge with attention?â or whatever Iâm talking about. So the video, they love that for marketing. And then Iâll say, âWhatâs your hashtag?â So Iâll start posting, Iâll start commenting, Iâll start following people. Iâll start being a little cheeky with some of the people if they post something. Or, âIâm super excited to see you guys! Oh my God, what am I gonna pack?â And so shoes are a part of my brand. So people take photos of my shoes, itâs so bizarre. But weâll talk about that sort of playful side of this. So definitely the hashtag, definitely the video. But then what Iâll also do is, Iâll go on, if itâs appropriate, Iâll like their business Facebook page and see what theyâre talking about and then Iâll comment.
34:50 Neen James: I will look to see and follow them on LinkedIn, to see whatâs happening in their LinkedIn profile. And whatâs interesting, because I talk about attention, I sometimes challenge my clients, âDo you actually know what your clients are saying about you?â And so you can look at social media to see what is the perception of this brand, of this client, of this executive that Iâm working with. So thereâs some things you can do beforehand. I also will share with them, âHey, hereâs an article you may like to publish on your newsletter before I speak.â So people have a little bit of a sense of you beforehand. âHey, is there a webinar?â When we used to do Tweet chats, Iâve done those. I like Blab as a platform, so Blab you could use and interview the CEO, or you can interview some of the VPs or whoever. And then I always interview five people beforehand. So what I do is I interview the five execs, or the Board, or the committee or whoever. Just to help me tailor my presentation and customize it based on their needs. And then Iâll say to them, âCan I use you, can I quote you?â And if they say, âYes,â then I will ask sometimes too, âCan I quote you on social media?â Thatâs a different process. My pharmaceutical clients, I canât do that, âcause I obviously haveâŠ
35:54 Michael Port: Compliance issues.
35:55 Neen James: Exactly, compliance and confidentiality. When I arrive at the event, not only am I already tweeting in advance, âCanât wait to see you guys. Am I going to be on at 2:00? Letâs connect.â âOh, my gosh. Whoâs at lunch?â So I will play before I even go on stage. But I tell my audience to tweet while I talk. And I say, âTake a photo. Good luck trying to get one without my mouth open.â
[chuckle]
36:15 Neen James: And then sometimes Iâll say, âI will give books to the best tweets,â and I get to vote. And then Iâll say, âSend me your address, Iâll send you an autographed book,â or something like that. So playing with the audience, âcause theyâre gonna be on their phones anyway. But I also use a service called Leadpages where they can actually use a number and theyâll get a white paper. So giving value through technology is another way to do it. And then after Iâve spoken, Iâll send another video. âHey! Loved being with you guys. Hey, itâs been 30 days since we got together. Did you do what you said you were gonna do? Do you remember what we talked about? And hereâs some other ways we can stay connected.â So itâs what I call before, during and after. Itâs a process.
36:50 Michael Port: So itâs a three-part process.
36:51 Neen James: You bet. Absolutely. Itâs systemised in my office.
36:54 Michael Port: Thatâs fantastic. It really makes a difference. Itâs something that I know I should do more of, for sure. And I know that so many of my students would be well served doing a lot more of it.
37:07 Neen James: If your fee is ever in question, if people donât wanna⊠They donât have your budget. So before we talk money and they say, âWell, whatâs your fee?â and I say, âWell, letâs just talk about the process.â I say, âI donât believe in just coming in and speaking at your event. I know thereâs other speakers who will happily do that for you. Let me walk you through my process.â And when you sell a process rather than a speech, and then you tell them everything theyâre gonna get and theyâre like, âWow! You would do all that?â Absolutely! By the way, this is all templatised.
37:33 Michael Port: Yeah.
37:34 Neen James: Absolutely, I would do all that. And they say, âAnd whatâs your fee?â And then you tell them your fee and theyâre like and theyâll do one of two things, âOh, okay,â or, âOh.â And when you hear that, youâre like, âWell, is there a committee involved in this decision?â And Iâve even done videos for committees.
37:47 Michael Port: Sure.
37:47 Neen James: âSo excited. Hereâs why Iâd be great for your event,â blah-blah-blah. If someone doesnât RFP, which I hate those requests for proposals, Iâll do a video. So just find ways to use social media because if youâre not using social media, youâre going to get left behind, whether you like Twitter or Facebook. Itâs irrelevant whether you like it or not, your audiences use it. And so you just gotta know who your audience is and where they like to play, and then leverage that.
38:12 Michael Port: Itâs great. Thatâs fantastic. Youâre obviously very thoughtful with respect to how you develop these relationships, manage these relationships, continue to nurture these relationships.
38:28 Neen James: We call it systemised thoughtfulness.
38:30 Michael Port: Oh, is that right?
38:31 Neen James: Yeah. So I speak about this in my keynote, so systemised thoughtfulnessâŠ
38:34 Michael Port: First of all, let me make a comment here. Do you see how, when you actually speak on how you behaveâŠ
[chuckle]
38:43 Michael Port: The world sees it without even knowing that thatâs what you speak on. So I just said, âTalk about thoughtfulness,â and you go, âActually this is what I talk about.â Shocker!
[laughter]
38:52 Michael Port: You do just what you talk about.
38:54 Neen James: Fancy that. Imagine.
38:54 Michael Port: Yeah. Right.
38:55 Neen James: But when you think about systemised thoughtfulness, you can put systems in place. I think a lot of speakers what they do is, they do their work beforehand. They work so hard to get the job. They go in and they rock the stage and then thereâs no follow up. And so many speakers donât stay in contact with their clients. And the reason I like staying in contact is they might not use me next year, but I can say, âMichael would be brilliant for this room.â And I always go to the meeting planner with two names. Before I go on stage, I plant one name and I say to the meeting planner, just before I step on stage, âYou know who this audience would love? Theyâd love Michael Port.â Then I do my thing and in the speech I often use Michaelâs name. Iâll say, âI was talking to Michael when I read his book âSteal the Show,â he was brilliant. You guys would love him.â
39:32 Michael Port: Wow!
39:34 Neen James: Planted.
39:35 Michael Port: Yeah.
39:35 Neen James: I come off the stage and I say, âYou know who else I was thinking would be good for you? Then Scott Stratten would be amazing. His book on marketing is awesome. Heâs just released a new one âUnSelling'â And so what Iâve done is planted two names to that meeting planner. And then I go away and I write an introduction between the speaker and the meeting planner, âMichael, please meet Deanne. She runs this event in Las Vegas. I think youâd love her.â
39:55 Michael Port: Brilliant.
39:56 Neen James: âDeanne, please meet Scott.â And so Iâll leave it up to you guys to connect. Because then Iâm the trusted resource for that person. And then I can say, âHereâs the social media profiles, hereâs their video.â And so I do that very diligently because they canât use me every year.
40:11 Michael Port: Yeah, right.
40:11 Neen James: But they could use my friends. And so if I know the audience and they know Iâve hit it out of the park, then they go, âWell, she knows our people. She knows our challenges.â And then I can brief the speaker, âHereâs what I learned in my research.â So you accelerate it for the other speaker. Thatâs systemised thoughtfulness as well.
40:27 Michael Port: Itâs beautiful. Itâs something that makes a huge difference and is often surprising to people that are not in the industry because most folks, letâs say, heating and air conditioning business. Theyâre competing with the other heating and air conditioning businesses in the area.
40:45 Neen James: Sure.
40:45 Michael Port: And theyâre often up for the same jobs, fighting against them, and the client is trying to push the prices down, etcetera, and it can be cut-throat.
40:55 Neen James: Sure.
40:56 Michael Port: But in our industry, you and I may be up for the same job, but we are finding ways to bring work to each other all the time. Itâs just so interesting to me that the people who are the most successful, that are the most popular in this industry, are the ones who are doing exactly what you are talking about. Friends get friends work.
41:18 Neen James: They do. And hereâs the thing, isnât it cool when you get to be on the same stage as another friend? I have this group of people that we refer each other all the time, and we package each other. I say, âIâll open, Patrick Henry will close,â or, âIâll open, Judson Laipply will close,â or whatever it is.
41:33 Michael Port: Yeah. Judson is a great guy.
41:35 Neen James: I love that man. But what itâs about is going to the pinning panel with a solution, so you have just not you and they realise itâs not just about you, but itâs about looking after everything else. So I will often ask, âWho else are you considering?â or âWho else is on the agenda?â and that gives me a feel for their budget, but also who do I wanna play with? I love when I see someoneâŠ
41:55 Michael Port: Yeah, so if you know if theyâre considering Seth Godin, you know what kind of money they have.
[chuckle]
42:00 Neen James: Thereâs that. [chuckle] Or whether theyâve blown all their budget on one big name and what they have left.
42:04 Michael Port: Sure. Sure, thatâs a good point.
42:05 Neen James: So thatâs another thing too, you gotta think about what do they have? You are a line item. You are one line item and theyâre trying to juggle that complete budget for all the speakers that theyâre having at the event.
42:18 Michael Port: Yeah.
42:19 Neen James: Same thing goes in the corporate space. I speak at a lot of corporate events, and they might be smaller. They might be 100, they might be 300. But those smaller corporate events, and I love them, but they have a different price tolerance than the meeting planner who has full production, AV, the whole thing going on. So you just gotta also know who do you like to play with and whatâs their budgets like.
42:40 Michael Port: Yeah, Iâve often been surprised by the fact that those smaller corporate events often have more money for their speakers than these big budget mega events, if theyâve spent their budgets on the lighting and the⊠Thereâs so many different things to concern themselves with where the CEO might say, âListen, hereâs a 100 grand, get so many speakers for this corporate event. Weâre gonna have 100 people there.â And they can spend more money often on those speakers because theyâre not spending as much money on other things.
43:18 Neen James: And they expect more.
43:19 Michael Port: Right.
43:20 Neen James: Because when you do speak for those smaller, they want the intimacy. They want you to hang with them. They love it when you have lunch with them or you hang out.
43:27 Michael Port: And also, theyâre really looking for specific deliverablesâŠ
43:30 Neen James: Very much so.
43:31 Michael Port: In a different way often than the really big events are. Sometimes the big events are looking for experience.
43:36 Neen James: Sure.
43:37 Michael Port: And theyâre not as worried about whether each person in the audience is gonna be able to do something with the information. They just want the audience to go, âOh my god, that speaker was amazing!â âWhatâd they talk about?â âNo idea.â
43:46 Neen James: No idea.
43:46 Michael Port: But I loved them.
[laughter]
43:48 Michael Port: But in the corporate space, theyâre like, âListen, ROI, ROI.â
43:50 Neen James: Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. And tie in their theme, and understand the CEOâs hot buttons, and, and, and, and.
43:58 Michael Port: Yeah.
43:58 Neen James: And I think too, one of the things, this industry is fascinating to me. I love it when I lose jobs to my friends âcause I was like, âOh my god, you chose Dan Thurman? I love that man.â âSimon Bailey? Absolutely. Of course, that makes sense.â So when you think about, itâs okay to ask, if you did lose a job, like why did they go that other way if you have that relationship with the meeting planner. But the other thing that I always do is say, âIâd love to be considered for next year.â
44:20 Michael Port: Yeah.
44:21 Neen James: So I think thatâs why systemised thoughtfulness works âcause it actually has a⊠It has happened where Iâve got booked because I missed out last year, but I stayed in contact with them this year.
44:29 Michael Port: And you have a process obviously for staying in contact.
44:30 Neen James: Right. And I donât think speakers have competitors. Like weâre so, so fiercely unique that itâs hard⊠I canât be Michael Port. You canât be me. But I think we have to be aware of what the competition is, and I think itâs more like industry speakers because itâs cheaper. Well, it cost them nothing often, to get an academic or to get a subject matter expert, a thought leader in their industry and I think thatâs where money is being lost in the professional industry, is to that industry speaker. And some of the industry speakers are getting good. They used to be brilliant and then theyâd suck with delivery but now theyâre the whole package. And if you can get that awesomeness where they have great information and awesome delivery.
45:10 Michael Port: Weâre getting a lot of professors in our training programs now.
45:15 Neen James: I could see that.
45:16 Michael Port: In our grad program, we have a finance professor from UC Berkeley, he was at Stanford for a long time. And heâs really working on his speaking.
45:24 Neen James: Thatâs awesome.
45:24 Michael Port: Because he want to be a highly paid speaker and not just, âOh, heâs a smart academic. Letâs get him, but we wonât have to pay him much âcause heâs not a professional speaker.â
45:31 Neen James: And think about how TED and YouTube has changed that for the business in that people are now being asked⊠Iâve been asked a couple of times recently to do 15 and 20-minute keynotes. That was a big⊠That was hard work for me, I gotta be honest with you. I love 45, I love 90 minutes, but 15 minutes? Thatâs crazy town. And so I work so much harder on those speeches.
45:52 Michael Port: Sure.
45:52 Neen James: But I think that our meeting planners, our clients, are looking for very different things now. They think itâs awesome if they can get five people to do 15 minutes, instead of giving someone a 75-minute slot or whatever. So we have to be really aware of what the trends are in our industry. Doesnât matter if youâre a man or a woman. Doesnât matter if you sound like youâre five or you sound like the gorgeous Scott McKain.
46:13 Michael Port: Oh, my god!
46:14 Neen James: One day I had aspirations of presenting with Scott. I love that man.
46:16 Michael Port: Scott. IâŠ
46:17 Neen James: But he and I together would be hilarious.
46:19 Michael Port: Actually, that would be really funny.
46:21 Neen James: I know. [chuckle]
46:21 Michael Port: Maybe Iâll do a podcast with both of you guysâŠ
[laughter]
46:24 Neen James: Oh my god, that would be so awesome.
46:26 Michael Port: At the same time. Scott McKainâs voice is likeâŠ
46:29 Neen James: Itâs like velvet.
46:30 Michael Port: Covered in butter. And thatâs howâŠ
46:32 Neen James: Oh my god, thatâs such a great analogy, so true.
46:33 Michael Port: I mean itâs⊠Yeah? Itâs like bathed, swathed in butter.
[laughter]
46:38 Michael Port: Heâs a real old-fashioned radio voice.
46:40 Neen James: A brilliant speaker.
46:42 Michael Port: So I donât even think he⊠I mean, he could go out there and he could do the phone book.
46:45 Neen James: Oh, yeah.
46:46 Michael Port: And youâd be like, âOh, this sounds great.â
46:47 Neen James: Mesmerized.
46:47 Michael Port: Yeah.
46:48 Neen James: Exactly.
46:49 Michael Port: So letâs talk a little bit about fees. Iâm not gonna ask you how much you charge, but do you have different fees for a different coast, East Coast, West Coast? International? And do you, it sounded like you did, but maybe you want to talk about it a little bit more, if there are add-on packages? How you structure your offerings?
47:10 Neen James: Sure. So I was with an executive today and they had brought in a celebrity speaker and he said to me, âNeen, thatâs what I want to do, âcause look how much money we paid him.â And I said, âLetâs just unpack what you paid him. Itâs cost him a couple of days in travel. Heâs had to customize. He has a New York Times best seller, but he had to write that book. Youâre paying for years of experience. All youâre looking at is an hourâs presentation.â So I think that we have to look at our value we deliver as that process. I donât have a different rate for East Coast, West Coast, but Iâm super conscious of time. I do a bazillion red-eyes, and Iâm happy Iâm little, I can sleep on a red-eye.
47:45 Michael Port: Now see, thatâs whatâs not fair.
47:46 Neen James: I know.
47:47 Michael Port: You can actually⊠Coach to you is first class to anyone else.
[laughter]
47:50 Michael Port: Like you could put your feet up on the chair, sit cross-leggedâŠ
47:53 Neen James: So youâre assuming I fly coach which is fascinating you would say that.
47:57 Michael Port: No, no. Iâm not⊠Iâm saying itâs a great way to save.
[laughter]
48:00 Neen James: Iâm teasing you. I know, I know.
48:00 Michael Port: Amy and I, when we fly on our ticket, we fly coach. When we fly someone elseâs ticket, we fly first class.
48:06 Neen James: I fly first class. And thereâs a couple of reasons for that.
48:09 Michael Port: Your shoes, you donât want them toâŠ
48:10 Neen James: Itâs that. And I donât wanna fight with anyone for overhead space. I wanna be on the plain. I wanna work, I wanna go to sleep, and I donât⊠I never check a bag, even for two weeks, even with my shoes.
48:20 Michael Port: Thatâs right. Yeah.
48:20 Neen James: But whatâs fascinating, my girlfriend and I have this joke. I look around, and thereâs not a lot of chicks in first class. That breaks my heart. But hereâs what I do. I charge a flat travel fee. And I think a lot of people are moving to that model. We used to do fee inclusive because I never wanted to argue with my client. Iâm never sending receipts. I donât wanna do that. But so many of my corporate clients, youâre not allowed to fly first class, but I choose to personally fly first class. So even if a client was funding a coach ticket, Iâd still buy a first class ticket, and say to them, âIâm happy to invoice you whatever you think itâs worth. But Iâll pay the difference.â But Iâm a brat. I like staying at nice hotels. I like a car service. And I like first class.
48:54 Michael Port: Why is that a brat? Thatâs perfectly fine.
48:55 Neen James: But because of the lifestyle weâve chosenâŠ
48:57 Michael Port: Sure.
48:57 Neen James: All my energy has to go on that stage for that moment. So I canât arrive tired. I canât be exhausted. I canât look not fabulous. So I think youâve gotta think about what works for you. So knowing that every speech is two days in America.
49:10 Michael Port: At least. Yeah.
49:11 Neen James: Because you have to travel in the night before âcause weather is insane, and air travel here is ridiculous. And then youâve given that whole day. And then if they want additional things like an extra break out after your keynote or⊠What I do is I listen to what the client wants, and I know itâs never a keynote. But thereâs always three options. So option one is just the speech. Option two is maybe some packaging. Option three is something ridiculous that I think theyâre never gonna pay for. Guess which option most of them choose?
49:40 Michael Port: Three.
49:41 Neen James: No. Often B. But C⊠If I put C, if I have to do it, then I have to love it. So when Laurie Guest is a speaker, she has this really cool formula called, sweet spot pricing, and lots of people offer packages. But she has a great formula. And so what I do is by giving them these choices, they then go, âOkay. I feel⊠â âCause most people take option B. They donât wanna look like the cheapest option, but maybe they canât stretch it to the most expensive. The other thing that I do quite often is I say, âHey, do you have a sponsor?â And a line that I use quite often is, âWould it make sense for everyone to get a copy of my book?â And then they go, âWell, we donât have a budget for that,â and say, âWell, do you have a sponsor?â Because we could put the sponsorsâ information on the book. And so Iâve had wrapped or stickers or whatever. Thereâs clever ways to get money and fees. International, yes of course. But I donât do heaps of international work. Iâm not that girl. I love being at home in Bucks County with my honey, and he travels as well. So I love being home. I donât need to work a bazillion days. I do 65 to 75 speeches a year. And I franklyâŠ
50:40 Michael Port: Which is still a lot.
50:41 Neen James: But I donât wanna do any more than that. I see these speakers, and theyâre like, âOh, my God. I did like 120 speeches.â And Iâm like, âThatâs exhausting. I donât want that.â [laughter]
50:49 Michael Port: Yeah, itâs a lot. What percentage of your revenue in your whole business is specifically derived from speaking?
50:55 Neen James: 70/30 is the split we do. So 70% of what I do is speaking, and 30% is the executive mentoring. Thereâs a tiny bit of product in there, but nothing to talk about. [chuckle]
51:04 Michael Port: You mentioned before, the flat fee. This made a difference for us when we moved to the flat fee, in large part because they just didnât like the idea of having to pay for first. Even if they were allowed to, they figured, âOh, weâre already paying all this money for the speech. And then we gotta pay for first.â So then they wanna negotiate down the fee. And this way, itâs not an issue. Itâs just this is what the fee is for travel. Weâll take care of it.
51:26 Neen James: I donât want people to know how I travel. Itâs none of their business.
51:28 Michael Port: Right.
51:30 Neen James: Iâm very proudly a brat. I like nice things. I love a nice lifestyle. This industry gives us the best lifestyle.
51:37 Michael Port: It does.
51:37 Neen James: I run a fat practice. I do not run a lean practice. Iâm happy to spend money on stuff, but thatâs my choice âcause itâs my practice. Some people run an incredibly lean practice, and they scrimp and save everywhere. And God bless them. Thatâs fantastic âcause that works for them. I like stuff. I love giving away money too, and I donât want people to argue with me about how Iâm gonna travel because we spend too much time on planes.
52:00 Michael Port: And Iâm glad you do because, Neen brought me a gift, a fabulous bottle of champagne, which is not a cheap bottle. And so thankfully, she does, âcause if she was cheap, she would have brought me some crap.
[laughter]
52:15 Neen James: Champagne is just one of my loves.
52:18 Michael Port: Okay. I have another question, and this will be our final topic, I think. I could sit here and talk to you all day. You talked about choosing your network.
52:28 Neen James: Right.
52:29 Michael Port: And we addressed the fact that friends get friends work, and how important your relationships are. But Iâd love you to explain to us what you mean by choosing your own network, and why itâs so important.
52:43 Neen James: The people that you surround yourself with have such a massive impact on how you show up in the world. And I think if you are surrounded with people who are toxic or negative or always down about everything, then that, by default, is gonna bring your energy down. And Iâm old. I know I donât sound like Iâm old, but the wisdom that comes with going, âYou know what? People are not my project.â Iâve had people in my life who are very needy. And then Iâve gone, âHmm, you know what? Theyâre not my project. I donât need to be that for them.â And so I think thereâs two kinds of people. Thereâs VIPs who are very inspiring people. These are the peopleâŠ
53:20 Michael Port: Oh, thatâs a nice⊠I like that.
53:21 Neen James: But think about it. These are the people you wanna hang around with. When youâre with them, you feel better. You feel better about yourself. You feel better about life. I always choose to surround myself with VIPs. Then thereâs VDPs which are very draining people. And we all have them. Sometimes thereâs family. You canât choose your family. But VDPs, you need to minimize your time with them. So I deliberately choose who are the people that I trust. And so I also choose the clients I work with because Iâm at a point in my practice where I can. So when I was first out, believe me, that was not my case. I spoke everywhere and did horrible flights and all that kind of stuff. But I think you gotta choose who you surround yourself with because thatâs a representation of your brand. And so by default, the people you hang around with also say a lot about who you are. I wanna be around people who love life, who love the people theyâre with, who love what they do, who adore if they have little people in their life, or furry people, thatâs the people I wanna hang around with. And thatâs why I choose to be a part of the National Speakers Association, âcause some of my dearest friendships have been made there. By the way, thereâre some crazies in that place, but thereâs crazies in any industry.
54:27 Michael Port: Anywhere. Anywhere.
54:28 Neen James: So I think you got to choose your network. But itâs not just about the people and the friendships, itâs about the clients, because youâre giving so much of your time and energy to those people. And if you leave it all on the stage, you gotta really like those people. And those people are taking you away from people you share your life with, so you gotta choose where you speak really deliberately. âCause if Iâm gonna give up my weekend to fly to a client or to hang with them, I better like them, âcause otherwise, itâll show up.
54:57 Michael Port: Well, I like you.
54:58 Neen James: Good! Iâm glad.
55:00 Michael Port: Youâre fantastic. Iâm so happy.
[chuckle]
55:00 Neen James: Youâre fun.
55:01 Michael Port: Weâve been trying to have sushi for years.
55:06 Neen James: Oh, my God. Letâs say years âcause thatâs true.
55:07 Michael Port: But Iâm really thankful that I got you here.
[chuckle]
55:10 Michael Port: I actually had sushi earlier today. Does that count?
55:12 Neen James: Sure.
55:13 Michael Port: I knew you were with clients, otherwise, I would have got it for you too.
55:14 Neen James: I was with clients. But thatâs good, we need to be with clients, right?
55:17 Michael Port: This is true.
55:18 Neen James: We canât just hang out all day and drink champagne and eat sushi.
55:20 Michael Port: We canât?
[laughter]
55:23 Michael Port: I mean, I think itâs possible at some point.
55:25 Neen James: I think we should have champagne at Heroic Public Speaking, Iâm just saying.
55:28 Michael Port: We shouldâve had it here actually, while we were doing this.
55:30 Neen James: Wouldâve been appropriate.
55:31 Michael Port: Weâll have to do another one of these.
[laughter]
55:33 Neen James: With Scott McKain.
55:34 Michael Port: With Scott McKain, exactly. Exactly right. Well, Scott was at Heroic Public Speaking Live last year. He said heâs gonna come back this year.
55:42 Neen James: He is?
55:43 Michael Port: Yeah, and Iâm gonna get you there this year.
55:46 Neen James: Thatâll be fun. Yeah, I just put it in my calendar. You saw me do it.
55:47 Michael Port: Good. And we can get you guys on stage at the same time.
55:51 Neen James: Oh my God, that would fulfill one of my dreams.
55:53 Michael Port: Then thatâs my goal.
55:53 Neen James: Thatâs whatâs happening.
55:54 Michael Port: My goal is to fulfill one of your dreams.
[laughter]
55:57 Michael Port: Thatâs fantastic.
55:57 Neen James: I love it.
56:00 Michael Port: Neen James, thank you so much again. Neenjames.com, itâs N as in November. E-E as in echo, echo. Again, N as in November. James, as in James, dot com. Thank you so much.
56:13 Neen James: Itâs been an absolute privilege to serve. Thanks for having me on your show. Itâs awesome.
56:17 Michael Port: Hey, this is Michael, again. Listen, Neen and I started talking after we turned off the recording and she started telling me a story that you have to hear. So we turned the recording back on. Here we are again. We started talking about how Neen got started.
56:32 Neen James: Right.
56:32 Michael Port: And she told me about how she⊠Well, Iâll let her tell you, but she relentlessly pursued a friend of ours to be her mentor.
[chuckle]
56:41 Michael Port: So tell us about this, how did you get started?
56:42 Neen James: I got started⊠I was a corporate girl, grew up in corporate business in Australia as I mentioned. And someone invited me to go to a National Speakers event. I didnât even know that was a thing, like a real job, like speaking was a job. And at the front of the room was a gentleman by the name of Matt Church, and many of you would know that heâs the founder of Thought Leaders Global. And he was giving this room of his competitors, I thought, all of his intellectual property, and I didnât understand that. I was like, âWhat is wrong with him?â Like I am corporate, we protect intellectual property in corporate. So I went up to him and I asked him about it afterwards. And then when I decided to be a speaker, and I stayed in contact with him, I was like, âOkay, this could be a thing. I could make money out of this.â
57:19 Neen James: I reached out to him and said, âIâd like you to be my mentor,â and he said, âNo.â And I was like, âI donât think you understand. Iâm Neen James. Iâm adorable. You wanna be my mentor.â âNo, no, really I donât.â And for six months Michael, I hounded him. I literally, Iâd stay in contact, weâd have coffee. I was like, âI would do anything. I need you to mentor me.â I mustâve worn him down because I presented him with a contract, and the contract said, âThis is whatâs gonna happen. Youâre gonna be my mentor, and Iâm gonna be your mentee. And for six months, weâre gonna meet. And I will sell books for you at the back of the room. I will attend your speeches. I will fly with you. I will pick you up from the airport. I will do whatever it takes to get five minutes of your brilliance.â As a result of Matt Church mentoring me, I think that he probably saved me at least five to seven years in my practice because not only is he brilliant, heâs clear.
58:06 Neen James: And for a year, even though I was building my practice, I was learning the good, the bad, and the ugly side of our business. And I think thatâs what saved me so much. I think people see an hour on stage and think, âWow itâs so easy.â But when you are mentored by truly one of the worldâs best, it makes a huge difference.
58:22 Michael Port: And he is.
58:23 Neen James: He is truly. Right now, people that I love and adore who I still look up to are my peers now, but Iâve gone to people like Mark Sandborn, Connie Podesta, Scott McKain, I go to these people for advice and theyâre so generous. So I think we have a responsibility too, no matter where weâre at in our careers, to also be a mentor for someone else.
58:41 Michael Port: Thatâs right. And interestingly enough, guess who Iâm talking to today at 4:00.
58:46 Neen James: Who?
58:47 Michael Port: Matt Church.
58:47 Neen James: Shut up!
58:47 Michael Port: Yes. Isnât that great?
58:48 Neen James: I love that. Tell him I say, âGood day.â
58:51 Michael Port: I sure will.
58:52 Neen James: Heâs doing some really exciting things with Thought Leaders Business School, so make sure you ask him about that.
58:56 Michael Port: Well, thatâs what weâre talking about. Heâs bringing it to the US.
58:58 Neen James: He is. Heâs gonna be in New York in a couple of weeks.
59:00 Michael Port: So weâre chatting about how I might be able to help facilitate that for him.
59:03 Neen James: It is a phenomenal program. Iâve seen peopleâs lives totally transformed, and their businesses sky-rocketed. So heâs about the commercial side. Heâs a brilliant man.
59:13 Michael Port: Yeah. Heâs great. So thank you.
59:15 Neen James: Itâs an Aussie Day!
[laughter]
59:16 Michael Port: Yeah, so thank you for that little extra bonus there.
59:19 Neen James: Pleasure.
59:20 Michael Port: And we will catch everybody next time. Bye for now.
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