00:00 Michael Port: Welcome to Steal The Show with Michael Port. This is Michael. Tamsen Webster is our guest today, and she is part idea whisperer, part message strategist, and part presentation coach. Tamsen helps people and organizations like Verizon, State Street Bank, Ericsson, Johnson & Johnson, and Disney, find and communicate the power of their ideas. She is the executive producer of TEDxCambridge, which is one of the oldest and largest local organized TEDx events in the world. In former lives, she worked in both agencies and at non-profits, heading up brand, marketing and fundraising communication strategy, along with a brief but enduring turn as a change management consultant. She is also a retired Weight Watchers leader and an accidental marathoner. Tamsen, how are you?
00:55 Tamsen Webster: Iâm so good. How are you, Michael?
00:57 Michael Port: Although I should probably say, âHow are yeah?â since youâreâŠ
[chuckle]
01:00 Tamsen Webster: Thankfully. See, now youâre trying to get Karen OâSullivan to come out really early in the interview.
01:04 Michael Port: Just give me a little Karen. See, Tamsenâs from Boston. Sheâs from Boston.
01:07 Tamsen Webster: Yeah, I am from Bostn. Iâm from Boston, not from Quincy. Donât get âem mixed up.
01:12 Michael Port: Sure. Sure. I wouldnât.
01:13 Tamsen Webster: Yeah, yeah. I gotta pick up my pocketbook âcause I gotta go get some potato chips and some popcorn.
01:18 Michael Port: I was in Boston on Friday.
01:20 Tamsen Webster: Were you?
01:20 Michael Port: Yes, and my hotel was on Webster Street.
01:24 Tamsen Webster: On Webster Street?
01:25 Michael Port: Yeah.
01:26 Tamsen Webster: That is a good street.
01:27 Michael Port: Yeah. Itâs a great street. Itâs right near Harvard Avenue or Harvard Street. In that area. Beacon Hill, kinda.
01:38 Tamsen Webster: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.
01:39 Michael Port: And anyhow, I was there because my momâs [01:41] ____ from Boston, and my grandmother who was 103, passed away last week.
01:48 Tamsen Webster: Oh Iâm so sorry.
01:49 Michael Port: Thank you. Look, she was 103, so it wasâŠ
01:51 Tamsen Webster: I know. Bless her.
01:53 Michael Port: For me, it was a celebration of her because who gets to live to 103? Not too many people. So thatâs why I was out in Boston, and it made me think of you, of course, and just how fantastic you are. So these are two things I wanna focus on today. I wanna talk about TEDx, the world of TEDx, what makes a great TEDx talk, how you as an executive director of, as I mentioned in the introduction one of the largest locally organized TEDx events in the world, and I also wanna focus on content creation because this is your area of specialty. You have mastered this, and I think people will just love it. So those are two areas Iâd like to focus on. Sound good?
02:34 Tamsen Webster: Sounds good. And just one point of clarification though. Iâm the executive producer. I donât wanna take that shine away from our executive director, but Dmitri and I are a terrible two, a dynamic duo. I donât know.
02:47 Michael Port: Iâll send him a message later.
02:49 Tamsen Webster: [02:49] ____ twins.
02:50 Michael Port: Iâll send Dmitri a message later, said that Iâve promoted you to executive director.
02:54 Tamsen Webster: Fabulous. Awesome.
02:55 Michael Port: And just to let him know he can come up with another title for himself.
03:00 Tamsen Webster: Honestly, he can keep it âcause that means he has to deal with all the space rentals and sponsorships and all of that, and I get the wonderful job of taking care of the speakers. So that I will keep the job I have.
03:12 Michael Port: Thatâs true. Now you do something different with your TEDx event. You do a number of things different, but one of the things that you do that is very special is you do a lot of work with the speakers on their speeches.
03:26 Tamsen Webster: We do.
03:26 Michael Port: You do a significant amount of coaching. You have a whole program for them, which makes a big difference in the result, in the outcome of their performances.
03:36 Tamsen Webster: We hope so. And a lot of that is, some of itâs self-preservation, but itâs also part of how we wanna differentiate our event, not only for the people who come to it, but for the speakers themselves. We do two events a year, so thatâs unusual in and of itself, and we do it as an evening event, also unusual, and we only have six speakers per event, which means that the expectation of the audience coming in for each of those speakers is very high. So we wanna make sure that the speakers all feel very, very comfortable with their talk. But also itâs a way for them to come to us. Increasingly TEDx events are very competitive. Events will compete for speakers in certain ways, and so itâs helpful for us to have something like that that makes us something thatâs different, and speakers come away feeling like not only did they give a great talk, but now theyâve got some skills they can use elsewhere in their life.
04:32 Michael Port: Yeah. See, I know that if I was to do a TEDx, I would wanna do it with you rather than someâŠ
04:38 Tamsen Webster: Aw.
04:39 Michael Port: Weâve talked about doing one together.
04:41 Tamsen Webster: Yep.
04:41 Michael Port: And I wonât mention what it was, but I had this idea for a TEDx that would be unusual and very risky, and of course, you being the risk taker that you are, âReally! Thatâs kinda cool. Letâs talk about that.â And I would be inclined to do it with you because you would help me craft it, organize it, present it in the most effective way possible. A lot of other TEDx events would just say, âOh yeah? Youâre gonna come? You just do whatever you want.â And thatâs not always the best thing, even for speakers who are professionals.
05:15 Tamsen Webster: True.
05:15 Michael Port: Because first of all TED talks are different than a typical keynote.
05:21 Tamsen Webster: They are.
05:22 Michael Port: And I think all performers need directors. I think thatâs important.
05:30 Tamsen Webster: I agree. And itâs not that the ideas arenât wonderful when they come in. They are. And itâs not that the speakers canât give excellent talks about these ideas without us. They can. For us, our motto for the TEDx Cambridge event is: Honor the idea. That is my motto for it at least because TED is all about ideas worth spreading. And so our pledge to the speakers, and I say this to them, is that our pledge to them is to get the best version of them giving their idea that we can possibly get on stage. And that means, a lot of times that we have to work with people to develop what as you noted, is a fundamentally different kind of talk. But the good news is that the things that make a great TEDx or TED style talk great are lessons that people can apply elsewhere in any kind of presentation and even into a professional keynote, whatever it might be.
06:30 Michael Port: Yeah, of course. With the theme of TED being, âIdeas worth spreadingâ, just because an ideaâs worth spreading it doesnât necessarily mean itâs ready for the stage.
06:42 Tamsen Webster: Correct.
06:43 Michael Port: So, yeah.
06:44 Tamsen Webster: Yes. Thatâs right. Yeah, yup.
06:47 Michael Port: So, letâs talk about that, the process. You get submissions and I imagine youâre also out there looking for talent. Producers do both. They review their submissions âcause you might get really lucky and someone comes in thatâs just fantastic and unique and not yet seen but should be seen. And then you also obviously know so many people who are professional, who are experienced, who could provide great value. So, when people are coming to you saying, âIâd like to⊠I wanna do TED, thatâd be amazing to be on TEDx cameras.â Whatâs the process and how do you evaluate the people that come to you and how do you ultimately make your choices?
07:26 Tamsen Webster: The process as you guessed, is a combination of submissions, recommendations from other people, and then Dmitri and I always on the hunt. We joke with each other that our ABC isnât always be closing, itâs always be curating. So, we are, we are always on the hunt. I kind of warn people whenever Iâm in any conference or talking to them, âJust know that my brain is always working on, do I hear an idea here?â So, weâre always looking for that. And Iâd say the first step in the process is figuring out, [A] does someone have an idea? And that just in that one simple phrase is a huge topic of discussion, âcause a lot of people have topics, they donât have ideas. I can come back to that. But letâs assume that they have an idea, the next question for us globally before we even go too far deep into the speaker is, is the idea both important, because it needs to be, and interesting? And thatâs where a lot of ideas stop. Thatâs where a lot of people stop in the process, where someone will come with an important idea but there isnât a take on it, there isnât something surprising about it, there isnât something new about it, there isnât something unexpected about it. Itâs an important idea but itâs not one that invites more questions. AndâŠ
08:49 Michael Port: So, whatâs an example of an important idea but not that interesting an idea?
08:55 Tamsen Webster: Well, from this Iâm gonna borrow a super example from Alex Bloomberg, who was with âThis American Lifeâ and âRadio Labâ and full credit to him, the interesting piece comes from him but I paired it with the important piece. And he describes it this way, if somebody comes to him and says, âHey, I wanna talk about homelessness.â And he says, âWell why?â And the person will come back and say, âWell, I wanna talk about homelessness because a huge number of people who are homeless are mentally ill.â And heâll say, âNo, thatâs not interesting.â Now a lot of people will get shocked by that because itâs important. Itâs important that we know that a significant number of people who are homeless are mentally ill. But itâs something that by and large a lot of people already know. Itâs not something that invites more questions. You contrast that with saying, âAlright, I wanna talk about homelessness.â. âWhy?â âWell, I wanna talk about homelessness which is interesting because a significant number of people who are homeless prefer being homeless to some other alternative.
09:56 Michael Port: Yeah, thatâs interesting
10:00 Tamsen Webster: Yeah, and then all of a sudden youâre like, âWell why? And who are these people? And whatâs preferable?â Thatâs always what Iâm listening for out of the gate. Does somebody already, has somebody already figured that out? A lot of times when Iâm working with the speakers or if Iâm working with clients, thatâs what Iâm teasing out, is how do we take whatâs an important idea and how do we find whatâs interesting about it?
10:19 Michael Port: It seems the question âwhyâ is a big part of that, because you said, a lot of⊠Often there are a large percentage of people who are homeless would prefer to be homeless than living in a home?
10:33 Tamsen Webster: Right.
10:33 Michael Port: And yet you were playing the listener who would say, âWell, why?â If somebody says âwhy?â, then theyâre interested. If they say âohâ, not so much.
10:49 Tamsen Webster: Of course, exactly, exactly.
10:52 Michael Port: If what youâre offering to somebody elicits that question why, then maybe thereâs some interest in it.
11:00 Tamsen Webster: Yes, exactly. Iâll give an example from our current speaker crop and this is not revealing anything that he wouldnât be comfortable sharing, where a speaker originally came to us with the idea, which I would classify more as a topic was, âIs income inequality important?â Yes, letâs move on.
[laughter]
11:22 Tamsen Webster: So, we kept poking at his idea a little bit and he came back with this question which was, âWhy are there still so many jobs?â And I said, âThatâs a really interesting question. Letâs talk about that.â And so his talk ends up now being about how in this world of AI where artificial intelligence and robots are taking over more and more of our jobs, why are there still so many of them? And then you add this other layer in, the fact that weâve got a huge number of the population who feels underemployed and yet in certain areas there is a surfeit of jobs. So thatâs one of those, thatâs from our current crop of speakers, thatâs was a, thatâs a great example I think, of that pivot from your income and equality to why there are still so many jobs.
12:05 Michael Port: Very interesting. So this is the first litmus test that they have to pass through. Whatâs next, so they go or they have an important idea, and itâs interesting. Do you next, are you now looking at, âWell, can I present this idea in a way that is interesting?â
12:23 Tamsen Webster: We donât put that level. We donât put that label on people or thatâs not quite what Iâm trying⊠But thatâs not an active criterion. We do look at how far might we have to move somebody from their current level of speaking to being stage-ready. We donât want six speakers who we have to move a lot, but we also donât want necessarily just for the experience of the event. We donât want six people who are incredibly comfortable on stage either because thatâs not as interesting as an event.
12:53 Tamsen Webster: A lot of people like TED because a lot of people who are on stage, particularly at TEDx level, are as yet unknown. And so thereâs this opportunity to see someone before they become great. And in fact, that happens at TEDx Cambridge. Amy Cuddy first gave her power pose talk on the TEDx Cambridge stage. And when she was invited then to give it to TED, they re-recorded it, and we took the original copy of it down. So we wanna find people who are willing and ready to be coached, but they donât have to be comfortable to start.
13:29 Michael Port: Very interesting. What else? I mean, whatâs the next part of the process?
13:35 Tamsen Webster: Once we feel that⊠So thereâs always this shift moment that we have of looking at people who are on our shortlist for the fall. And then we spend some time looking at the mixture of ideas. Do we have a good range between academics and non-academics? And that can be hard sometimes frankly, being in Cambridge, because we have such a rich well of people to draw from between MIT, and Harvard, and all the other schools here. But itâs important again for the arc of the event to make sure that we have some human interest stories, some things that are more tech or business or entrepreneurship related. So weâre taking the swirl of important and interesting ideas and looking at, âDo we have a good mix? Do we have a good mix of ideas? Do we have a good mix of speaker types? Meaning, comfortable to not. And also and importantly, do we have a good mix from a gender perspective, and from race, ethnicity, political view, all of those other criteria to make sure that weâve got a well-balanced representation on stage.
14:40 Tamsen Webster: Once we feel like weâve got that, then the coaching process starts. And that is depending on the timing and which event weâre talking about, itâs usually between 12 and 14 weeks that weâre working with them. And the first⊠And that falls roughly into the categories of tightening the idea, and figuring out what the context through which the audience will receive it is. So okay, we have this idea, great. But whereâs the audience gonna start with this idea? Itâs gonna be something thatâs really surprising to them or new. Are they gonna be resistant to the idea? Are they gonna be open, eager, and ready? And we move from there to gathering all the content for the talk based on that context, and what the idea is, and we structure it, and weâre big fans of story structure here. And then about a month before the event, which is where we are right now, we transition to performance and delivery of the event. So those are the big stages of it.
15:34 Michael Port: Itâs one of the things that I tell a lot of our students when theyâre just starting out. The curation piece is such a big part of the decision making process that is completely out of their control. Itâs like when youâre an actor, if youâre auditioning for, say, the lead in a play, but theyâve already cast, and youâre a man, and theyâre already cast the woman. Now letâs say, this woman is 4â11â. Well, youâre 6â5âł. Itâs not gonna work visually unless thatâs part of the dynamic thatâs written into the script. And even if youâre great, even if you do a wonderful job at the audition, youâre probably not gonna get it. So you canât take it personally because often the choices that theyâre making are influenced by the choices theyâve already made.
16:30 Tamsen Webster: Thatâs 100% true.
16:32 Michael Port: Yeah. And actually, Billy Crudup who is I think the least famous, most famous actor. Do you know who Billy is?
16:41 Tamsen Webster: Yeah, I do. And heâs marvelous, but he always just melts into whatever movie heâs in. So I donât think people notice him very much.
16:47 Michael Port: And thatâs intentional for him. Billy was two years ahead of me at grad school at NYU. And Billy was always very, very pretty. I mean, heâs a very, very handsome guy. And he didnât wanna be known as very handsome, and he wanted to be a character actor. And so he made very strong choices right from the beginning not to do talk shows. He would only do the absolute minimum that he was required to do contractually in those big part of his negotiation process, because he felt that once you know who he is, you canât see him play a character anymore, you just see the actor.
17:24 Michael Port: And thatâs what happens sometimes to actors as they get more and more famous over time, which is a separate issue. But the reason Iâm mentioning him is because when we got out of grad school, one of the first films that he got was, he had a role in, âInventing the Abbotts.â I think it was the name of the film. Something about the Abbotts, theyâre a couple of brothers. And it was Stephen Spielberg executive produced movie, he wasnât directing it, but he was the executive producer. And after a couple of days of shooting, Spielberg was looking at the dailies, and decided he didnât think Billy worked, so he got fired. Now, think about that, coming out of grad school, now Billy was being considered for the role of Robin while he was still in grad school, in Batman and Robin. Joel Schumacher said to him, âListen, I want you, but I gotta go with the guy the studio wants, âcause heâs already known.â I forgot the guyâs name, heâs on some TV show now. He knew he was gonna do well, at least everybody else knew he was gonna do well but he got fired, and then right after that he went in to audition at Lincoln Center for a show. And on his first time in, he didnât really nail it.
18:37 Michael Port: Daniel Swee, who was the casting director at the time at Lincoln Center, he said he gave him some direction and when Billy left, heâs like, âI just, I missed it, I didnât do it.â So, he called up his agent, Sarah Fargo, I donât know if sheâs still his agent, but he called up Sarah and said, âListen, can you get be back in there? âCause I donât think Iâm gonna get a call back because I didnât do what Daniel asked me to but now I know what it is, Iâm 100% sureâ. And she called in, and said âListen, Billy wants to come back in.â And heâs like, âI donât really think heâs right, heâs great, I love him, Iâll bring him in for other things, but not for this. Plus, heâs too short. The woman that we have playing the role is quite a bit taller than him. And Billyâs maybe 5â8âł on a good day, I think.â So, a couple weeks went by, and Sarah gets a call from Daniel Swee saying, âListen, Iâd like to see Billy again.â She said, âReally? What happened? I thought he was too short? And he didnât nail the audition.â He says, âNo, well, the woman, something happened, sheâs not playing the role anymore, and weâve cast Jennifer Dundas. Now, Jennifer is 5â, is 4â11â. So, weâre now looking at the shorter actors again.â
[laughter]
19:49 Michael Port: Billy goes back in, he nails it.
19:51 Tamsen Webster: Oh man!
19:52 Michael Port: Does exactly what Daniel wanted, he gets it, he wins the Outer Critic Circle Award, which is a big award in theater, in New York, and he was off to the races from there. SoâŠ
20:02 Tamsen Webster: Amazing.
20:02 Michael Port: Thereâs so much chance, just based on decisions that were made before you even showed up, that you canât take it all so personally.
20:12 Tamsen Webster: Exactly, and I will validate that from now until the end of time. That is so true that sometimes, we get great ideas in and either we are, honestly, it does come down to this, we canât add another man, because it would throw off our gender balance, we try very hard to have 50-50 at least, male-female, and, or that weâve already got an AI Talk, or weâve already got a talk thatâs on that and itâs not, again, that the idea isnât important and interesting, itâs just that the timing isnât right.
20:47 Michael Port: But thatâs actually, we have a gender balance issue for Heroic Public Speaking Live coming up for which you will be on this panel about the business of speaking. Weâre gonna, weâre working on trying to figure out how to do it as like a family feud style [chuckle] thing, as opposed to just a regular panel. Weâll see if we can pull it off, but we like to take risks. But we like to do it 50-50, half men, half women. And right now, we have too many women.
21:17 Tamsen Webster: [chuckle] Well, Ruth Bader Ginsburg would be proud! [chuckle]
21:20 Michael Port: She would. Now we, this is actually, itâs part of one of our missions is to support women in this industry, because thereâs an imbalance in the industry, but in terms of whoâs put on the stage, but there is not an imbalance in terms of talent. The women are there.
21:37 Tamsen Webster: Thank you, yes, agreed. [chuckle]
21:37 Michael Port: Theyâre just not getting the same kind of recognition as the men. And eventually thatâll change, I think, but we want to be a part of that and we actually find that we have just as many, if not more, women at our events and our training, than men. So, we can see a shift already, in terms of people who are coming in, so the new generation will be a little bit more balanced. The point is, is that someone who at first didnât think she was gonna be there and then she is, weâre like, âWhat, we already said we want you to comeâ, so we gotta put her on and then Christa [22:13] ____, who was there last year, who I told last year, I was like, âOh, please, come back again!â I didnât think she could, now sheâs like, âI can come!â So, Iâm like, âOh, okay.â Now Chris is coming, so, now itâs like we have four women I think, and two men.
22:25 Tamsen Webster: Thatâs a good problem to have!
22:27 Michael Port: I know, and if we can make the family feud thing work, then we maybe will bring in even a couple more people, so they have more people on each side of the family.
22:35 Tamsen Webster: Yeah! Perfect.
22:35 Michael Port: And then weâll have to figure outâŠ
22:36 Tamsen Webster: So then youâll be more accurate, there you go.
22:37 Michael Port: Whoâs in which family? MaybeâŠ
22:39 Tamsen Webster: Oh! That would also be interesting, I like this.
22:42 Michael Port: We could do men against women, we could also do that, make it a little interesting. Itâs not fair to the guys though, because theyâll get trounced. [laughter] Itâs just the way it is! You know, theyâll get killed.
22:53 Tamsen Webster: Oh, no comment.
22:54 Michael Port: Yeah, exactly. All right, so letâs talk about topic versus ideas, because you said, we touched on it, but you said we can get back to it, and I would, because I think itâll be helpful for people. Most people feel like they have a topic. The topicâs so broad. So, whatâs the difference? And how can people move from topic to idea in order to get themselves better placed for TEDx opportunities?
23:20 Tamsen Webster: Well, the biggest difference between a topic and idea, and youâre already hitting on it, is specificity. But in the way I think about it, itâs specificity in a very specific way. An idea, and this is true for TEDx but Iâm increasingly finding this is true for any communication, is that an idea is, how I like to just define it, the one thing that people have to understand, but probably donât, to solve a problem that they may or may not know they have. So, the one thing that people have to understand to solve a problem that they have.
23:56 Michael Port: So, give me an example.
23:58 Tamsen Webster: So, an example of a problem. Of course youâre gonna ask me that off the top of my head. Example of a problem that people evenâŠ
24:04 Michael Port: [chuckle] I know, Iâm sorry, Iâm terrible.
24:06 Tamsen Webster: [laughter] Well I use an example from⊠Something Iâve been working on âcause itâs top of mine. Well I can use the example from one of our TEDx speakers thatâs even better. So the idea, sheâs giving a âbig dataâ talk. And the idea at the core of this is that, the only true way to manage risk is to make room for the unknown. So, now how did we get there? So, we got there by working backwards, and this is the process that I go through with all the speakers I work with, is first saying, âWhat is the thing that you think you wanna talk about?â In her case, it was talking about making sure that we are uniting qualitative and quantitative data. And a lot of people would start off by saying that that was the idea, but itâs not. Thatâs not the idea, thatâs a solution, and a solution is not an idea.
25:04 Tamsen Webster: So if we think about this piece of it and we start with what is the audience thatâs coming in, what would be the thing that the audience would readily agree they want? Whatâs the audienceâs goal? And when it comes to what sheâs talking about, the audienceâs goal is to make the right decisions, to mitigate risk, because thatâs why and how people are using big data. Well, what challenges are they facing with that? Well, the challenge they are facing that theyâre spending all this money on big data, theyâve got all these dashboards and the decisions arenât getting any easier. Well, why is that? Well, thatâs happening because big data doesnât create more knowledge, big data creates more unknowns. Okay, so now weâve got a real problem thatâs in the way of the audienceâs goal. And then from that, we have to tease out what is the one thing that people have to understand about that problem in order to solve it. Well, the only way to mitigate risk is to make room for that unknown, because more knowledge creates more unknowns and thatâs where the risk is. So weâve gotta figure those pieces out. Whatâs the solution? We need to make room for the unknown. How do we do that? Thatâs what it talks about. But itâs that process that I walk people through to tease out the idea thatâs at the core of what theyâre trying to talk about.
26:27 Michael Port: And thatâs a big part of your work, big focus, big theme for you is simplicity.
26:32 Tamsen Webster: Yes. Yes.
26:33 Michael Port: And this is what we love, we cut, cut, cut, until we get to the core of something. And one of the things that I would love to see changed in general in the speaking industry, especially in conferences, a little bit different around workshops because, say, for example, if weâre doing an improv workshop at HPS Live, Mike Canino is gonna be teaching improv. And if heâs doing an improv workshop, thereâs a fair amount of improv in unknown in that workshop. So if he has 60 minutes or 90 minutes, then he can do as much as he can in that time which is different than a pre-determined script. Okay, you have⊠Iâm gonna go deliver a TED Talk, while TED Talk is a certain amount of time, but why is a keynote always 60 minutes, why are these slots always the same? Maybe I only need 37 minutes, do you know? So they donât need to all be the same. And what happens ultimately is, people end up filling them up with stuff that doesnât really need to be in there, just because itâs supposed to be an hour.
27:47 Tamsen Webster: Yes.
27:47 Michael Port: And then of course what happens is the audience is sitting there going, âAlright, well this is fun but I just know I gotta make it⊠Something the greatest thing ever, I just have to make it til the end of the hour and then I can have a breakâ.
27:58 Tamsen Webster: [chuckle] Yeah.
28:00 Michael Port: But if they cut all the stuff that was filler, and they just did whatever it took 30 minutes or 35 minutes, that 35 minutes would be time really well spent and the person will feel like, âWow, that was a phenomenal speech.â So itâs same thing on my podcast, I donât have a certain amount of time, theyâre not always an hour, sometimes Iâve done some that are hour and a half, two hours, not too many, but some. And then Iâve done many that are four or five minutes and sometimes are 27 minutes and I donât know where this will end, the only thing I know is that I have another podcast about 45 minutes from now so I know I have to be done before that. So I donât know we have to always organize ourself around time, I think we organize ourselves around, âWhat do we need to do with this audience, for this audience to deliver on that promise, to get them where they need to be by the end?â So letâs talk about story structure, letâs talk about just that.
28:56 Tamsen Webster: Yeah. Yep.
28:57 Michael Port: How do you move into story structure work with folks?
29:02 Tamsen Webster: So, I back into it, they donât know theyâre doing it until itâs done. So Iâve created a process by which⊠[chuckle]
29:09 Michael Port: Thatâs sort of how I work⊠Thatâs how I deal with my kids. [laughter]
29:14 Tamsen Webster: Well, my background is, I spent 20 years in marketing, and you start talking about story structure to business people and academics and scientists and a lot of times, their eyes will just go, glaze over, theyâre like, âYou are whackadoodle, I donât even wanna talk to you about this.â But if you talk about story structure with other language and then, you get them to give you that information and then you happen to put that information to certain order, and then you reveal to them, guess what you just did, then theyâre like, âOh thatâs coolâ, [chuckle] which is my goal. So, I describe my process as talk mad libs, where basically those five elements that Iâve mentioned become the core skeletal sentences, I call them a foreign entire talk. And to your point you were just saying, it can be a five-minute talk or it can be a three-day workshop, but thereâs gonna be some core to that, and here are the five elements.
30:15 Tamsen Webster: The audienceâs goal, the thing they would readily agree they want before they ever hear you talk. Two, the problem that they are facing that is in the way of the goal, and in this case for the talks at least this is the real problem. Then thereâs the idea, then there is the change that needs to happen in order to enact that idea and in the actions that you take to get there.
30:41 Tamsen Webster: Now how do we back into story structure with that? Well, if youâre talking about a three-act structure, it usually breaks down roughly like this. That in the first act, the first part of the talk, you are moving the audience from the goal that they know they have to an understanding and agreement with the real problem. The second act, so basically thatâs your beginning hook. Like, âOkay, oops. Now weâve got a problem.â Then the middle build is where youâre moving people from an understanding of this problem to agreement with the idea that this is the thing that needs to happen in order to⊠This is the thing you have to understand in order to change that. Thatâs the second big chunk. And then roughly the third big chunk is moving people from understanding an idea through to the change that needs to happen and the actions they need to take in order to get back to their goal.
31:28 Michael Port: Thatâs fantastic. It has a three-act structure to it.
31:33 Tamsen Webster: Oh yeah, it absolutely does. And thatâs very conscious but I donât reveal that upfront when Iâm working with people.
31:38 Michael Port: Thatâs fascinating, yeah.
31:39 Tamsen Webster: My approach is, âLet me do the work. I figured this out. You donât have to worry about this. Just give me these pieces of your talk and trust me.â If we talk about them in roughly this order, and thereâs always of course for storytelling pieces you may wanna delay revealing something upfront. But it always falls in roughly yeah, in those three acts.
32:00 Michael Port: And it doesnât matter how much time a particular speech is, youâre following this structure. You know what I really like about the structure is its simplicity. Doesnât mean itâs gonna be easy for somebody to do because often creative work takes a lot of brain fluid.
32:19 Tamsen Webster: Yes. [laughter]
32:20 Michael Port: And this idea that, âMake it easy, make it easy, make it easy.â Well, we can make it simple, but itâs not alwaysâŠ
32:26 Tamsen Webster: Yes, itâs simple, not easy.
32:28 Michael Port: Exactly, itâs not always gonna be easy. And the reason I love that you focus so much on simplicity is because in the structure story content development, because on the performance side our focus is on simplicity because simplicity is such an important part of an audience understanding what you are experiencing so they can experience the same thing. An actor that is simple is very compelling. An actor that is complicated is hard to see through. If thereâs too many layers on at the same time, the audience doesnât know what to look for or what theyâre seeing.
33:15 Tamsen Webster: Yes, yes.
33:15 Michael Port: But this is similar and also you could also call it honesty, the more honest you are or the more connected you are. Some people throw around the word âauthenticâ a lot in performance, I think that can take on different meanings.
33:30 Tamsen Webster: Yeah. For me the word is âconsonant.â You know this, but my favorite word to describe that is consonant, which is the opposite of dissonance. So thereâs dissonance and consonance, and dissonance of course is where thereâs a clash, thereâs a gap, things donât quite work. But consonance is what I use to describe when someone, a speaker, is perfectly in-tune with their message, the message is in-tune with the audience, and the speaker is in-tune with the audience. And when you have that, then it works. And a lot of times people focus only on one leg of that stool rather than looking at all of it and seeing how itâs all working together. But thatâs where Iâve tried really hard with the process that I use to help people come up with these talks to very similar to I back people into story structure, back them into something that they are passionate about and something thatâs relevant to the audience. Because they wonât get to the point of being willing to do this work if they donât care about it. And once youâve answered these questions for people, once theyâve answered them for themselves, why would people care? What is the real problem? What do they have to understand that only I have figured out so far? And what is the thing that I really want them to do? Then they become personally invested in what theyâre talking about. And because weâve put all this from the framework of how would the audience respond to this, youâve already got the audience looped in as well.
34:50 Michael Port: And this consonanceâŠ
34:50 Tamsen Webster: So itâs really just a method to getting there.
34:52 Michael Port: Well, the consonance produces resonance.
34:55 Tamsen Webster: Yes.
34:55 Michael Port: And thatâs what you want. You want resonance. You want⊠Thereâs intellectual resonance, thereâs emotional resonance, and of course thereâs physical. You want the audience to feel physical change, experience your whole talk in their body, in their mind and in their heart at the same time.
35:21 Tamsen Webster: Yes. Yes, and my goal is to take resonance one step further, and that is⊠So, I love to use the example of tuning forks. So tuning forks being those metal things that tunes to a certain note. You hit them, you put them on something that resonates and then you can hear that note more loudly. Well the cool thing⊠And so thatâs resonance right there. You canât really hear it until you put it on something that resonates and then that allows that sound to be heard and for people to listen to it and decide what to do with it. They hum along, tune to it, whatever. If there are two tuning forks though, and those two tuning forks are tuned to the same note, this is when really cool stuff happens.
36:01 Tamsen Webster: Because if you hit one tuning fork and itâs sitting on its resonating box, and then the other one you just donât touch but itâs sitting silent, what happens is if you stop the first one that you hit from ringing, the note will continue to ring in the one you never touched. And itâs so cool when you can show that to people, but even the concept is amazing to people. And this is what I say to speakers all the time about thatâs the goal. Thatâs the goal that youâre trying to get, not just momentary resonance, because resonance stops as soon as you stop talking. But consonance, when those two things are tuned, when youâre tuned to the audience and they are tuned to you, that note that you may be speaking, that message that youâre delivering, even when you stop giving it, if youâre tuned, itâll continue to ring in them.
36:49 Michael Port: Yeah, you know what it makes me think of, it makes me think of how much dissonance we create as performers with an audience when we are very anxious. Because that anxiety, that stress, is like taking your hand and putting it on the tuning fork and dampening it so it stops vibrating. All of that anxiety often compels people to protect themselves.
37:26 Tamsen Webster: Like you choke off the sound.
37:28 Michael Port: Exactly.
37:28 Tamsen Webster: Absolutely, literally.
37:28 Michael Port: Yeah, and so you sometimes hear it in peopleâs voice. They start getting a dry voice and they canât get it out and they stop breathing. Physically, they start getting tight, and it really just stops all of that vibration from filling the room and connecting with other people, creating this kind of consonance and then resonance, and then the step further. Itâs a beautiful analogy, I really quite like it.
37:57 Tamsen Webster: Thank you. And the resonance is critical, and this is what I say to people, âIt has to start with you. You have to have this idea. You have to love it. You have to be willing to put it all out there for it. And then you need to make sure that itâs in tune with the audience,â because, and weâve all seen speakers like that, where you can tell the speaker loves their talk and the audience is just kind of like, âOkay?â
[chuckle]
38:23 Tamsen Webster: Youâre entertaining, this was great. Or even in the moment it felt good to see that person speak. And I want people to want one step more than that. Let people⊠Donât just wow the crowd, change them. Let them be different afterwards. And sometimes that means that you have to find that, but it all, all, all, all comes down to finding the core of what it is that you are talking about and just being so clear on what that is so that idea⊠And this is why itâs so important, is that idea that youâre trying to get across, youâre trying to transfer it into the minds of the person that youâre talking to with as little loss as possible. You wanna mainline it. Youâre trying to mainline meaning from your brain to theirs.
[chuckle]
39:16 Tamsen Webster: Thatâs the goal.
39:17 Michael Port: Thatâs great. What are some TED Talks or other speeches that people could look at to see an example of this story structure? The goal, problem they face, thatâs in the way of the goal, the idea change, actions. Any examples that you can give them that they might be able to find online?
39:39 Tamsen Webster: Well, I will tell you that any of the favorites, do it. They just may not have done it consciously. [chuckle] And the clarity on this structure, I should say, is recent. So this next group of speakers is the first one that is officially through this process described that way. But one of my favorite examples of a talk that the three act structure spends much of its time just on the first piece, so this is a point I wanna make too, is that these chunks arenât necessarily equal in time. And you know this as a speaker, is that sometimes you need to spend a lot of time getting people to understand why it is that this situation exists in the first place.
40:23 Michael Port: Yeah, âcause itâs interesting, people often ask, âWell, exactly how much time should I spend on each one of these components?â As if there is a certain amount of time. Like, âHow much time should I spend on the opening? How much time on the closing?â As if an opening or a closing has some sort of pre-determined length.
40:44 Tamsen Webster: No, it doesnât, and it completely depends on the type of talk. So I will get back to the question of TED Talks to look at it just a second. Because hereâs the thing, I think thereâs essentially three types of talks. There is the âWhyâ talk, which if you think about the chunks we were talking about earlier, the âWhyâ talk spends much of itâs time, most of itâs time, on moving somebody from âI want this thing, this goal,â to âHereâs this idea.â Just the whole talk is about that piece. And then right at the end, in a sentence or two, you might say, âAnd so this is the change you need to make and this is the way to do it.â And a great example of that kind of talk is Malcolm Gladwellâs David and Goliath talk. He spends of 12 minutes, 10 of it telling the story, which is all just a giant set up for⊠âHereâs the real problem. Things arenât always what they seem. Donât believe everything right on the surface.â And thatâs it, and itâs just as beautiful talk that just happens just like that.
41:46 Tamsen Webster: At the other extreme is the âHowâ talk. The âhowâ talk is basically where youâre spending most of your time in that third chunk, where youâve got people and they say âYep, I have this problem. I agree with this idea, but now what do I do about it?â Favorite example of a very short talk is Joe Smithâs, âHow To Use One Paper Towel.â Itâs four and a half minutes. He dispenses with the problem, the goal of the problem, and the idea within Iâd say the first 30 seconds to a minute of the talk, and the rest of talk is all about on what to do and how to do it.
42:20 Michael Port: By the way, after I saw that talk, I now only use one paper towel when I wash my hands at a public restroom.
42:28 Tamsen Webster: Isnât that awesome? Yeah. [laughter]
42:30 Michael Port: And now if I donât I feel terrible. I go, âOh, my God.â
42:33 Tamsen Webster: I know. Yeah.
42:34 Michael Port: And then the next time, âOkay, next time Iâm gonna do it properly.â Itâs so easy and it stuck.
42:39 Tamsen Webster: Yes, yes. So Iâm happy to say at our fall event we are going to have the companion talk to that, which is how to wash your hands properly, which we hope is equally as sticky.
[laughter]
42:52 Michael Port: Well, hereâs a goodâŠ
42:52 Tamsen Webster: So now that people know how to use one paper towel, how to make sure that youâre washed your hands properly before you use it.
42:56 Michael Port: Now, hereâs a good point. Itâs like you think this is such a little thing, like, âWhat do you mean, this is gonna be a great talk about how to wash your hands?â It absolutely could be extraordinary. At Heroic Public Speaking we say, âChanging the world one speech at a time.â Joe Smithâs speech, this little short thing, thatâs changing the world one speech at a time, one paper towel at a time.
43:20 Tamsen Webster: Paper towel at a time. Yeah.
43:22 Michael Port: And it was amazing about what he was able to do in that, he was able to reach people that arenât hardcore conservationists.
43:31 Tamsen Webster: Yes. Right.
43:31 Michael Port: And that was the key. So obviously, Iâm concerned about the environment, but I do drive a big boat with diesel engines, and have an SUV for all the kids. Iâm not living off the grid. So itâs no something that Iâm thinking about all the time, but he got me to do whatâs right and only use one paper towel.
43:56 Tamsen Webster: Thatâs right. He mainlined the meaning.
43:57 Michael Port: Exactly.
43:57 Tamsen Webster: I mean thatâs what he did. He went in with a goal of what he wanted to accomplish, and he figured out what had to happen, what was the key thing that people had to understand in order to do that, and thatâs that you donât need any more than one, one is enough if you use it correctly, and thatâs essentially, itâs never stated out loud, but sometimes thatâs true, sometimes it can be implied idea. But the third type of talk, I donât wanna leave people hanging, the third type of talk sits between the âWhy?â and the âHow?â, and thatâs what I call, âWhat now?â talk.
44:28 Tamsen Webster: And essentially what youâre doing is youâre spending about half the time on the first trunk, and half of it, itâs basically your first half of the talk, again, whatever length, is to get people to the idea, and then the last half of the talk is to get people from the idea through to action. Great example of that, most of the top 10, Iâd say, most watched TED Talks fall in that category, Simon Sinekâs does, Ken Robinsonâs does, and essentially youâll know those talks because what they do is they reveal a problem that people probably werenât aware of or hadnât really thought about, and they spend about the first half getting there, and then the second half is about, âNow, what do we do about it?â High level.
45:14 Tamsen Webster: So itâs not tactical, like youâre gonna do this, and then check three boxes, and then move on to the next process, but high level âWhat do we need to do?â So in Ken Robinsonâs talk he basically spends half the talk getting to the point that we educate the creativity out of kids, and so the last half, yeah, almost a third of the talk is about, âWell, what do we do now?â Well, first we have to understand that weâre not preparing them for the future. How do we prepare them for the future? We need to make sure that weâre acknowledging a wider definition of intelligence, and then once we recognize a wider definition of intelligence, then we need to make sure our educational structures support those.
45:51 Tamsen Webster: So, âWhy? What now? How?â is a really key decision for people to make, not only because it tells you where to spend time in your talk, but for a lot of your listeners itâs a good way to chunk out what kind of talk to deliver in what kind of environment. Keynotes are almost always âWhy?â talks.
46:12 Michael Port: Yeah. Thatâs right. Yeah.
46:14 Tamsen Webster: And a fair number of them are, âWhat now?â talks as well. Breakout sessions almost always, âHow?â
46:20 Michael Port: Thatâs right.
46:21 Tamsen Webster: And then youâve got main stage which tends to be, âWhat now?â And thatâs a good way to think about it based on what stage youâre about to be on.
46:27 Michael Port: Thatâs right. One of the ways that I articulate it in the Steal The Show, in the book, is there are these message-based speeches, and then curriculum-based speeches, and of course any curriculum-based speech is gonna have a strong message in it, but itâs a how-to. How do you do this thing? So when I give a Book Yourself Solid speech, thatâs a curriculum-based speech, and when I give a Think Big Revolution speech, thatâs a message speech. Yeah. Hey, listen. We gotta wrap up. You are phenomenal. Iâm a huge fan. Weâre going to have collaborate more. I know you and Amy talked about that.
47:02 Tamsen Webster: Please. Oh, Iâd love that.
47:03 Michael Port: But weâve got to get you in doing more stuff.
47:04 Tamsen Webster: Iâm such fans of you and Amy.
47:06 Michael Port: Yeah. Thank you. And I know youâre talking to Amy later today, whichâŠ
47:09 Tamsen Webster: I am, yes. Sheâs helping me on a keynote, as it were, as it turns out, so⊠[chuckle]
47:13 Michael Port: Itâs so great. Well, Iâll tell you what, you are just tremendous, and I think everybody should work with you, no doubt about that.
47:20 Tamsen Webster: Well, thanks so much.
47:21 Michael Port: Yeah. Iâm a big fan.
47:21 Tamsen Webster: Thank you.
47:22 Michael Port: And of course where can they find you now?
47:25 Tamsen Webster: They can find me at TamsenWebster.com. It is in process still, but thereâs enough there to get people started, but should be up and running fully within the month I think, knock on wood or whatever I can get my hands on. But TamsenWebster.com, also semi-active on Twitter, but seeing what I do and get in touch with me the website is the best way.
47:47 Michael Port: Yeah. For sure. Thank you so much for taking the time. I really, really appreciate it. Thank you, Tamsen.
47:51 Tamsen Webster: I loved it. Thanks so much, Michael.
47:53 Michael Port: And everybody keep thinking big about who you and what you offer the world. Thank you for giving us the opportunity to be in service of you. We never take it for granted. And weâll see you next time. Oh yeah, if you feel like it, go ahead and leave a rating and review, I appreciate that. But if you donât, no problem, go get on with your day. Bye for now. Cool. Hey, TamsenâŠ
48:16 Tamsen Webster: Super.
48:16 Michael Port: I gotta go âcause IâŠ
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